MNK and GL

[Relhon]

I'm curious as to the usefulness of the 4th stack of GL. Is 4 stacks more powerful than 3 stacks under fists of fire? How exactly is this designed to work?

[GrumbleBeard]

At 80, they both have the same overall damage % increase, but GL4 is stronger because it's faster as well. Better to stay in FoF until you have 3 stacks and are ready to move over to FoW and GL4.

[Powercow]

At 80, they both have the same overall damage % increase

Eh sorta. The way damage multipliers work is a bit different, with FoF being 3% more damage at the cost of 5% speed under FoW. FoW still wins out handily long-term though.

"Wait where'd the 3% come from?" Glad you asked!

So buffs all multiply off of each other in this game. For example, Twin Snakes (10% more damage) multiplies whatever damage you would have done by 1.1. Fists of Fire is also 10%, so it multiplies the damage by 10% as well. So two +10% buffs are +20%, right? Nope! Going from no buffs at all to both of those, you would get: (100% * 1.1 * 1.1) = 121% damage. Sure it's only 1%, but it adds up when you factor in things like Riddle of Fire, Brotherhood, Fists of Fire, GL3, Trick Attack, the Dancer buff, Devotion, Embolden, etc. etc.

Greased Lightning is a slightly odd duck in that you don't have 3 (or 4) Greased Lightning buffs active, but rather one buff that overrides itself. Greased Lightning 3 is 30% damage and 15% haste, and GL4 is 40% damage and 20% haste. Since all the other buffs help both equally, let's compare GL3+Fists of Fire VS GL4.

GL3/FoF: (100% * 1.3 * 1.1) = 143%.
GL4: (100% *1.4) = 140%.

So yeah, GL3/FoF is technically more damage to your oGCD skills than GL4, if only slightly. This is why the Monk opener stays in FoF until the first Riddle of Fire is done -- the extra 5% haste won't be enough to get another GCD under RoF, but the 3% damage will help all your oGCD skills. After the first one though, you're best off just sitting in RoW and GL4 for the rest of the fight. Switching back and forth isn't worth it past the opener.

And I guess if we wanna be really pedantic, going from 115% to 120% haste is only a 4.34% boost in overall speed, which is still better than 3% damage. Also there's considerations for a new rotation at high enough speeds, etc. etc.

[Relhon]

That's an interesting take on it, however with full buffs (Brotherhood, RoF, Twin Snakes, etc) your 3% creeps up to around 4.5%. Granted those buffs aren't up all the time, but when they are is it still worth the 4.34% speed boost to lose that extra 4.5% damage?

The tool tips sound like you can use RoF with FoW, so you get your 4th stack and still get your 30% boost. Is this the case?

[wereotter]

snip

You're calculations miss the third aspect of GL. It provides an increasing amount of additional damage and an decrease to your global cooldown, which you mention, but the part you overlooked is that it also decreases your auto attack delay by 5% for every stack. This isn't flashy or impressive numerically until you add it up over the course of a fight. As an example, looking at some of my old parses from Omega, my auto attacks made up to 30% of my entire damage when compared to our dragoon or bard having only about 15% of their total damage from auto attacks, adding more frequent auto attacks to monk will make a difference. To that end, I would say it is always better to be in fists of wind if you unless you have fewer than three stacks of GL.

The tool tips sound like you can use RoF with FoW, so you get your 4th stack and still get your 30% boost. Is this the case?

Yes. You can apply Riddle of Fire while in Fists of Wind without losing your stance or 4th stack of greased lightning.

[GrumbleBeard]

Info

Ah yeah, I didn't realize that. Thank you for the clarification!

[Powercow]

You're calculations miss the third aspect of GL. It provides an increasing amount of additional damage and an decrease to your global cooldown, which you mention, but the part you overlooked is that it also decreases your auto attack delay by 5% for every stack. This isn't flashy or impressive numerically until you add it up over the course of a fight. As an example, looking at some of my old parses from Omega, my auto attacks made up to 30% of my entire damage when compared to our dragoon or bard having only about 15% of their total damage from auto attacks, adding more frequent auto attacks to monk will make a difference. To that end, I would say it is always better to be in fists of wind if you unless you have fewer than three stacks of GL.

Oh no, I didn't miss it, I used the word "haste" in my post (admittedly I did use "speed" first). It's the same type of buff as Presence of Mind or the old Arrow/Scholar fairy haste (and RoF's slow), so it does apply to autoattacks but does not have an effect on DoT tick damage like Skill/Spellspeed do.

Still, even if you squeeze out one more autoattack during that RoF opener (which is possible, if unlikely) it still wouldn't outweigh the 3% bonus general damage under it. But yes, after that opener you sit in FoW for the rest of the fight. Really the biggest advantage comes from the slight rotational tweak where you use True Strike twice per Twin Snakes (requires just under 1300 skillspeed to do.) This is a pretty nice rotation that was possible back in HW, but TP limitations at the time kept it from being especially good.