Chain combo button

[Kabooa]

The whole reason why they changed DNC main 4 attack skills into the dance steps is because you can't use them when in a step anyway.

So why doesn't Gunbreaker's Cartridge Combo work like that? They can't use that outside of starting and continuing said Combo.

By this same token, -why shouldn't every combo work this way-. Did you know Dragoon has 9 buttons taken up by their combos? That's like 5-6 additional actions -they don't get- because pushing 12345 is so engaging and skillful.

[Llethander]

So why doesn't Gunbreaker's Cartridge Combo work like that? They can't use that outside of starting and continuing said Combo.

By this same token, -why shouldn't every combo work this way-. Did you know Dragoon has 9 buttons taken up by their combos? That's like 5-6 additional actions -they don't get- because pushing 12345 is so engaging and skillful.

Because the dance step skills aren't a combo. Perhaps also because they aren't available unless you're in a step and other skills can't be used while in a step. Because those cartridge combo skills and the main rotation can be used at the same time, granted that would be silly because one combo can interrupt the other combo (oh hey, a chance to make a mistake). Maybe if Gunbreaker's cartridge combo locked out the rest of their skills this would be an apples-to-apples comparison but, as it is right now, you're comparing two completely different interactions.

Having other buttons to press that aren't part of your 1-2-3 or 4-5-6 combo chain add the opportunity to make a mistake. It's a level of challenge (complexity) - albeit a very minor one - that does not exist when all you have to do to play your class is press 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1.

If you dumb down the game to the point where classes are boring to play you will find that people lose interest and end up leaving for something that isn't mind-numbingly easy.

[Kabooa]

Because the dance step skills aren't a combo. Because those cartridge combo skills and the main rotation can be used at the same time, granted that would be silly because one combo can interrupt the other combo (oh hey, a chance to make a mistake).

Having other buttons to press that aren't part of your 1-2-3 or 4-5-6 combo chain add the opportunity to make a mistake. It's a level of challenge - albeit a very minor one - that does not exist when all you have to do to play your class is press 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1.

You know what adds more challenge?

More actions that put conflicting timers and other constraints of their use on each other, which we don't get due to button bloat, which is caused by having combo actions arbitrarily be on different buttons.

[Llethander]

You know what adds more challenge?

More actions that put conflicting timers and other constraints of their use on each other, which we don't get due to button bloat, which is caused by having combo actions arbitrarily be on different buttons.

So basically what you're saying is instead of pressing 1-2-3 you want us to press 1 far more often and 2-3 far less often. I'm not seeing the extra complexity you're claiming.

Let's remove buttons so we can add other buttons that basically do the same thing less often but have no direct interaction with the other skills thus removing a layer of complexity while the only complexity being added is a cooldown timer.

I'm seeing something of a lateral shift leaning towards net loss as opposed to a net gain in your suggestion here.

[Kabooa]

So basically what you're saying is instead of pressing 1-2-3 you want us to press 1 far more often and 2-3 far less often. I'm not seeing the extra complexity you're claiming.

Let's remove buttons so we can add other buttons that basically do the same thing less often but have no direct interaction with the other skills thus removing a layer of complexity while the only complexity being added is a cooldown timer.

I'm seeing something of a lateral shift leaning towards net loss as opposed to a net gain in your suggestion here.

No complexity was removed, unless you honestly think sequential button pressing is complex.

As far as depth and complexity being added, that depends entirely on the nature of the actions you add.

[Shurrikhan]

So basically what you're saying is instead of pressing 1-2-3 you want us to press 1 far more often and 2-3 far less often. I'm not seeing the extra complexity you're claiming.

Let's remove buttons so we can add other buttons that basically do the same thing less often but have no direct interaction with the other skills thus removing a layer of complexity while the only complexity being added is a cooldown timer.

I'm seeing something of a lateral shift leaning towards net loss as opposed to a net gain in your suggestion here.

One is no more or less complex than the other. They're exactly the same in that regard.

The difference is that one can now support more actions that add actual depth, rather than costing 1 to 7 buttons for a single linear decision (for which the only claim to distinction is that it, by nature, cannot allow for any nuance).

[Llethander]

Honestly I'm not seeing it. All I see when I think of what is being suggested is the current state of WoW's skill bar wherein all skills can fit on a single toolbar and requires no thought to use. The game literally becomes nothing more than [Press 1 - use oGCD - Press 1 - use oGCD - Press 1 - any oGCD off cooldown? If yes: use oGCD, If no: Wait for GCD - press 1 - Repeat] which is the main reason, paired with an over-arching lack of challenge to the game, why I, and many others based on many threads on the forums, left the game.

Pruning of abilities is something that can destroy the fun of combat for those of us who actually like having buttons to press instead of mashing one button to win.

Allow me to finish by linking an article regarding WoW and their revelation on the over-pruning of abilities in their game: https://massivelyop.com/2019/06/22/b...-gone-too-far/

In last week’s Dev Insights video, Ion Hazzikostas confessed that Blizzard went “too far” on class balance and pruning in the past few expansions. There is clearly some regret over various abilities that were either watered down or removed from the game entirely, and Blizzard may be restoring these in the future, offering more options for hybrid play and stronger class identity.

“A consistent point of feedback has been the concern that we’ve gone too far,” Hazzikostas said. “And after a lot of reflection and ongoing discussion, ultimately I would like to say that we agree with that feedback. There are places where in Warlords and Legion we were probably too focused on button count as a measure of complexity. There’s a lot more nuance to it than that.”

At this point I will concede that I will neither sway your opinion nor will my opinion be swayed on the matter and any further continuation of this line of discussion is going to be very cyclic in nature.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion and believe that the idea of pruning abilities beyond what has already been done with the changes brought about in Shadowbringers is not what the game needs.

[Kabooa]

I respectfully disagree with your opinion and believe that the idea of pruning abilities beyond what has already been done with the changes brought about in Shadowbringers is not what the game needs.

Nothing is being pruned.

The combos are being consolidated. The individual weaponskills and their effects remain. That's what's being asked for.

[Shurrikhan]

Honestly I'm not seeing it. All I see when I think of what is being suggested is the current state of WoW's skill bar wherein all skills can fit on a single toolbar and requires no thought to use. The game literally becomes nothing more than [Press 1 - use oGCD - Press 1 - use oGCD - Press 1 - any oGCD off cooldown? If yes: use oGCD, If no: Wait for GCD - press 1 - Repeat] which is the main reason, paired with an over-arching lack of challenge to the game, why I, and many others based on many threads on the forums, left the game.

Pruning of abilities is something that can destroy the fun of combat for those of us who actually like having buttons to press instead of mashing one button to win.

Allow me to finish by linking an article regarding WoW and their revelation on the over-pruning of abilities in their game: https://massivelyop.com/2019/06/22/b...-gone-too-far/



At this point I will concede that I will neither sway your opinion nor will my opinion be swayed on the matter and any further continuation of this line of discussion is going to be very cyclic in nature.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion and believe that the idea of pruning abilities beyond what has already been done with the changes brought about in Shadowbringers is not what the game needs.

Again, button count =/= complexity. The issue wasn't that they lost buttons. The issue was that they lost depth, flavor, and utility through removed actions. WoW's bars weren't "bloated" to begin with, just rather full, and thus in shrinking down from some 34+ buttons (and therefore, in their case, actions) to ~22-28 per spec they lost some complexity (and, more significantly, flavor), because no consolidation (nor compensation) was used when trying to reduce the number of buttons required to play the game. Conflation and fear-mongering does not suddenly turn apples into oranges, as you're attempting to do here.

Kabooa has never once suggested that we prune abilities. She has suggested adding them. The issue at present is that we're already running 32-34+ necessary hotbar slots, despite anywhere from 2 to ~7 of those slots on any given job belonging to actions that have no need for, nor benefit in having, their own separate key slots, leaving us little space in which to add actual depth. We're playing effectively at modern WoW levels of toolkit depth (greater than some specs and less than some specs), just with far more buttons being consumed in the process, when we could easily support far more depth with the number of keys we have now.

My own position is that I'd rather see the buttons we have be actual actions in their own right, rather than just parts 1 through 5 of a single action. I'd like Disembowel, for instance, to be more than just Buff/DoT_Combo_Part_II. I'd like combos to be actual combos, wherein one has multiple paths, competitive situationally and preemptively or macro-rotationally, to exploit the synergies of separately useful abilities, rather than a "combo" being merely a rigid sequence that reduces all but one skill in its chain to bloat.