SAM is undertuned again.

[Noitems]

SAM is in a very tough spot because of this, especially with the resistance down debuffs being gone. It's highlighting how it absolutely needs something to stand up when the other 3 melees offer more.

MNK with Brotherhood and Mantra, DRG with Litany and Eye, and NIN with the godlike Trick Attack.

All having their own dots, while not as amazing as Higanbana are naturally part of their rotation and don't need a cashout for their gauge to use.

I leveled up SAM as my first dps to 80 in SHB and I do like how fun it is, but the removal of Hagakure (a staple I loved using in 4.0) and the addition of the absolutely bizarre Shoha don't help it's case. Not every fight is going to have the downtime to maximize on Shoha and also with the meditation stacks being on a timer doesn't even help it in the long run. You're looking at best maybe 200 extra potency (3 ticks) off an OGCD which is nice but I feel we should gradually earn these stacks through other means.

Hell even if Seigan would add a stack on for landing it, I think even that would be nice to add on.

[BigBossCL]

Snipped

I totally agree. Its actually at the point for me with NIN that the complexity of the job just isn't worth the reward, since as it is currently, NIN is pretty undertuned (TA doesn't come close to making-up the low damage output NIN current does in a EX's). If I'm going to be putting out about as much dps as a job that doesn't require 15 fingers to play, why am I putting myself through all this effort to master a job when its still going to be less useful than everything else? Give me the easier rotation/job and let me contribute more.

[BigBossCL]

MNK with Brotherhood and Mantra, DRG with Litany and Eye, and NIN with the godlike Trick Attack.

Even with TA, you still do less dps with a NIN in your party because their dps is so obscenely low atm, that you more than make-up for the dps gap by just taking a higher dps job.

IN a party with a NIN and a party that replaced their NIN with a SAM, the party with the SAM will do more dps.

[Drayos]

I totally agree. Its actually at the point for me with NIN that the complexity of the job just isn't worth the reward, since as it is currently, NIN is pretty undertuned (TA doesn't come close to making-up the low damage output NIN current does in a EX's). If I'm going to be putting out about as much dps as a job that doesn't require 15 fingers to play, why am I putting myself through all this effort to master a job when its still going to be less useful than everything else? Give me the easier rotation/job and let me contribute more.

I don’t think that’s entirely true, I mean if we reallly break it down.

If u look at logs, the problem here is you have to remember the utility is being pushed into the pure dps. Which means the ninjas dps will look even lower as it isn’t being padded at all.

And I think ninjas are what logging at a max of 9.5k odd and averaging around 9k.

If you think the highest damage is 13k and that’s on a padded BLM it prolly means BLM can do like 11.5k dps without any buffs

Ninjas 2.5k dps behind in dps begins for giving the entire raid burst windows. Logs show numbers, but they’re showing numbers under variations of padding and not true personal dps.

And you have to remember that sadly difficulty of your job doesn’t contribute to balance. All jobs have to be balanced in what they are reguardless of the difficulty to play it. A mmorpg would never be successful on that sort of design realistically.

If u ask me TA shoulda been deleted and ninja should have gotten a few utility buffs and became a midway dps/utility being around bard levels of dps. But I guess they didn’t wanna do that.

But that aside.

In reality the ninjas Rdps is pretty strong and your above dancer PDPS by quite a margin and when comparing actual dps between.job to job the numbers aren’t huge.

Logs don’t show it but it won’t ever show that, look at dragoon and bard in SB their dps looked abysmal on logs.

It’s because the dps are being padded by players picking ninja and more and able to fit their bursts into those windows bolstering their dps.

[ForteNightshade]

Brotherhood is on a much shorter CD than Litany while Dragon Sight is a meager 5% on a single target every 120s. Dragoon is, frankly, where it should be. If they were to nerf it, you run the risk of Dragoon serving no purpose.

I totally agree. Its actually at the point for me with NIN that the complexity of the job just isn't worth the reward, since as it is currently, NIN is pretty undertuned (TA doesn't come close to making-up the low damage output NIN current does in a EX's). If I'm going to be putting out about as much dps as a job that doesn't require 15 fingers to play, why am I putting myself through all this effort to master a job when its still going to be less useful than everything else? Give me the easier rotation/job and let me contribute more.

I never saw myself supporting this but recently, I have been leaning closer to them nerfing Trick Attack and buffing Ninja's potencies. The sheer amount of work required just doesn't justify the reward anymore. Ninjas have to jump through hoops for their rotation, need to line up Trick timings and get stuck on LB duty. And for what? Crap damage.

Granted, I do actually like a lot of what Ninja got this expansion. Too bad the implementation of it seems... lackluster to put it mildly. Bushin is extremely underwhelming, Meisui suggests they want us to convert Suitons into more Bhav yet that's proven to be a DPS loss half the time and we're now forced to double weave which causes tons of clipping. It really feels like Ninja had a good conceptual design but they flubbed on the execution.

[Veshiro]

My suggestion would be to rework Shoha into a Hagakure-like ability. Have it consume Sen for an oGCD attack with potency based off how many Sen you spend. Give it a decent cooldown and potency. This would give SAM that flexibility that Hagakure gave while adding damage that isn't for niche situations like current Shoha.

Another idea is to have ticks of Higanbana have a chance to give stacks for Shoha instead of meditate. This is similar to the soul voice of bard.

[Drayos]

Brotherhood is on a much shorter CD than Litany while Dragon Sight is a meager 5% on a single target every 120s. Dragoon is, frankly, where it should be. If they were to nerf it, you run the risk of Dragoon serving no purpose.



I never saw myself supporting this but recently, I have been leaning closer to them nerfing Trick Attack and buffing Ninja's potencies. The sheer amount of work required just doesn't justify the reward anymore. Ninjas have to jump through hoops for their rotation, need to line up Trick timings and get stuck on LB duty. And for what? Crap damage.

Granted, I do actually like a lot of what Ninja got this expansion. Too bad the implementation of it seems... lackluster to put it mildly. Bushin is extremely underwhelming, Meisui suggests they want us to convert Suitons into more Bhav yet that's proven to be a DPS loss half the time and we're now forced to double weave which causes tons of clipping. It really feels like Ninja had a good conceptual design but they flubbed on the execution.

Tbh if they nerfed it’s damage slightly and deleted Litney it’d be fine.

We are aware ninjas do over 11k dps right? O.o if you look up the top ninjas, they are only 2k dps behind the highest BLM in the game... if u look them up, the averager and maximum numbers put Ninja 2k DPS below BLM which is the highest DPS. they really arent as bad as people are saying i think there is some sorta exaggeration used, in SB Ninja was Defintly Not within 2k DPS of the Pure BLM jobs. i think most of the problem is, SE have done as much as they can now to remove 60 second burst windows.. which has Innately nerfed TA.

imho, they need a New type of utility to offer, Remove TA and Introduce some Mechanics which hold more weight in a Raid enviroment.

[dapperfaffer]

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/28/#boss=1045
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/28/#boss=1046

75th percentile means nothing, but your talking about an aggregate difference of 60 to 150 rdps total. Sams are fine buff nin and dnc.

[Brownondorf]

My suggestion would be to rework Shoha into a Hagakure-like ability. Have it consume Sen for an oGCD attack with potency based off how many Sen you spend. Give it a decent cooldown and potency. This would give SAM that flexibility that Hagakure gave while adding damage that isn't for niche situations like current Shoha.

Now that's an awesome idea!
Something like that would be nice:
1 Sen = 250 potency
2 Sen = 500 potency
3 Sen = 750 potency
CD = 60 sec

That's just an exemple, i don't know what potency/cd it should have to be balanced but anyway, anything would be better than our current Shôha...

Another idea is to have ticks of Higanbana have a chance to give stacks for Shoha instead of meditate. This is similar to the soul voice of bard.

Cool idea too! It could even motivate people to actually use double Higanbana to make Shôha proc faster!

Alright so right now there's 4 very cool idea i've seen to rework Shôha:
- Midare Setsugekka give a Shôha stack (no timer)
- Hissatsu Seigan give a Shôha stack (no timer)
- Hagakure effect on Shôha, consumme sen to attack
- Shôha proc with higanbana, like bard dots do

Hope these ideas get to the dev team. Shôha in its current state is 100% unacceptable.

[Noitems]

Even with TA, you still do less dps with a NIN in your party because their dps is so obscenely low atm, that you more than make-up for the dps gap by just taking a higher dps job.

IN a party with a NIN and a party that replaced their NIN with a SAM, the party with the SAM will do more dps.

I know personal DPS for NIN is low but I thought makes up for that by providing the best rDPS through TA. I mean we're talking a 10% damage increase for 10 seconds that would line up with most people's burst phase.