An arguement towards having Healing on DPS

[ADVSS]

I just recently realized something rather mindblowing when i thought about it.

I see the community constantly complaining about summoners wanting physick to be useful. to be honest. For the longest time i thought that they had somewhat a point since i didn't have experience with other classes but on thought of class abilities and spells. i came to the realization.

Out of every class in the game. Only blackmage is the one that DOES NOT have a self healing ability of some kind.

To people that say DPS should not have a heal. all classes have them.
-Disciples of war have second wind. Some others even have bloodbath which also heal themselves.
-Redmage has Vercure
-Summoner has a (Mind attuned) physick and now Pheonix
-Blue mage.... is bluemage
-Healers be healers
-Hell even the tanks have abilities that heal.

This kinda makes the removal of Drain as one of the things that makes black mage completely different.

I actually argue.. That Drain should have been buffed and given solely to blackmage. Or one of their abilities modified to add a vampiric effect or some sort. Bring them up so they can too be self reliant.

And yea i want Arcanist_Physick to be Int based. But i think the black mage should get something for themselves too. Sure they have a shield. but that is on a 2 minute cooldown. They are the ones most deserving of a heal ability.

Phoenix looks like it might be o.k. but I havent gotten there yet, im sure someone can confirm if it makes a difference, it looks like it would give more than physick if it isnt mnd based for sure, but it is a hot, it is aoe as well. I agree with Drain though, buffed, it IS a Black Magic spell from previous FF. I see no reason why it cant be a BLM spell, for BLMs only.

[Cynfael]

I just recently realized something rather mindblowing when i thought about it.

I see the community constantly complaining about summoners wanting physick to be useful. to be honest. For the longest time i thought that they had somewhat a point since i didn't have experience with other classes but on thought of class abilities and spells. i came to the realization.

Out of every class in the game. Only blackmage is the one that DOES NOT have a self healing ability of some kind.

To people that say DPS should not have a heal. all classes have them.
-Disciples of war have second wind. Some others even have bloodbath which also heal themselves.
-Redmage has Vercure
-Summoner has a (Mind attuned) physick and now Pheonix
-Blue mage.... is bluemage
-Healers be healers
-Hell even the tanks have abilities that heal.

This kinda makes the removal of Drain as one of the things that makes black mage completely different.

I actually argue.. That Drain should have been buffed and given solely to blackmage. Or one of their abilities modified to add a vampiric effect or some sort. Bring them up so they can too be self reliant.

And yea i want Arcanist_Physick to be Int based. But i think the black mage should get something for themselves too. Sure they have a shield. but that is on a 2 minute cooldown. They are the ones most deserving of a heal ability.

Putting aside BLU since it doesn't really matter outside of BLU-themed content, the only serviceable, spammable heal on that list is Vercure, which I strongly believe was included only so that RDM could lay claim to an iconic White Magic Cure and so that they had a self-targeting spell to set up Dual Cast during phase transitions.

There's nothing wrong with non-healers having an emergency heal, but you only need to look at how many RDMs stop doing their actual jobs in favor of trying to do the healer's job to see what happens when we give DPS access to viable, on-demand healing. I've had the argument presented to me that we shouldn't withhold tools simply because some bad players might not use them correctly, but to me this is a fundamental design issue. If you want a role trinity design not to be a complete mess, you do have to shoehorn players into their roles to an extent. You can't make them be good at those roles, but you can at least limit their ability to try to screw up the entire system by not giving them tools that are likely to encourage them to ignore their assigned role.*


*Obviously this doesn't apply to the same extent to healers since healing in this game is not a full-time job and they need DPS tools if they want to do anything other than sit on their thumbs between heals. The DPS role, on the other hand, really has only one job to do, and healing themselves and others on a regular basis is not it.

[Corosar]

it doesn't need one in pve (since Convert heals HP in pvp)
every other DPS in the game don't have a huge shield they can pop like BLM

Summoner has a better shield if you use Topaz as a primary. It charges in 30 seconds blocks only 20% of your max health and has 2 charges on it. You lose the Ruin 4 from it but its still arguably better. Black gains a 30% shield every 2 minutes. I feel that only makes the argument more so.

Phoenix looks like it might be o.k.

From my current tests of Pheonix. It heals around 12k just out of the final boss over the course of 20 seconds (about 2k 6 times) If you stand in white mage's AOE bubble thingy. it goes up to about 3k per tick (18k over 20 seconds) so it does alright.

Putting aside BLU since it doesn't really matter outside of BLU-themed content, the only serviceable, spammable heal on that list is Vercure, which I strongly believe was included only so that RDM could lay claim to an iconic White Magic Cure and so that they had a self-targeting spell to set up Dual Cast during phase transitions.

There's nothing wrong with non-healers having an emergency heal, but you only need to look at how many RDMs stop doing their actual jobs in favor of trying to do the healer's job to see what happens when we give DPS access to viable, on-demand healing. I've had the argument presented to me that we shouldn't withhold tools simply because some bad players might not use them correctly, but to me this is a fundamental design issue. If you want a role trinity design not to be a complete mess, you do have to shoehorn players into their roles to an extent. You can't make them be good at those roles, but you can at least limit their ability to try to screw up the entire system by not giving them tools that are likely to encourage them to ignore their assigned role.*

I admit blu is not a contestant here. but i still included it for completion sakes. I personally like the idea of being self reliant somewhat if shit hits the fan and having an ability to do so is good in the end. I admit i summoner main but never cared much for my own personal Damage per second since i play with my own group. 4.0 Physick was still able to be made useful with Mind materia but that don't work anymore. I said INT physick cus then that does not screw over Arcanists using Physick since they should have similar INT and MIND.

However Black mage not having a heal at all does mean that they are far less likely to be able to sustain themselves as easily as every other class (Including blu) I just feel that they should have something at least.

[Jandor]

The only serviceable, spammable heal on that list is Vercure, which I strongly believe was included only so that RDM could lay claim to an iconic White Magic Cure and so that they had a self-targeting spell to set up Dual Cast during phase transitions.

Paladin's clemency is servicable and spammable.

[Cynfael]

Paladin's clemency is servicable and spammable.

IIRC it has MP limitations that somewhat mitigate its spam potential. It also tends to be abused by backseat-healing tanks, like Vercure by RDMs of a similar mindset.

Well then if the first half is too repetitive, please address the second:


Because the burden of proof lies on the accuser, and "a relevant number of RDMs are fooled into full-healing outside of emergencies by the presence of Vercure" is not something I can say to be universally true based on experience.

I'm not sure how taking a stance in this discussion makes me an "accuser", but sure.... You continue to deconstruct my writing and make strawmen out of it: I didn't claim that there were RDMs healing full-time all over the place. What I said was that I've observed many RDMs stopping DPS to heal unnecessarily. Perhaps it's our respective definitions of "unnecessary" healing that differ?

In any case it comes down to your experience versus mine, which is a wash, because neither of us can provide hard evidence, as is usually the case when we're speaking anecdotally.

[Archwizard]

I'm not sure how taking a stance in this discussion makes me an "accuser", but sure.... You continue to deconstruct my writing and make strawmen out of it

I'm pointing out the logical flaws in your generalized arguments by providing examples that the same logic could be used to justify anything, and you're simply being selective for reasons you won't explain.

I didn't claim that there were RDMs healing full-time all over the place.

No, but you did state "you only need to look at how many RDMs stop doing their actual jobs in favor of trying to do the healer's job to see what happens when we give DPS access to viable, on-demand healing."

I've been trying to get you to explain this statement -- how many RDMs do so, for clarity? -- preferably with some kind of tangible evidence or common knowledge, because as far as I can tell, there's no epidemic of RDMs trying to make their way as core healers. A handful of players stopping to throw out a heal on occasion is not a flaw of the job, it's just people throwing out unnecessary heals, like if a healer wasted a cooldown. But you continue to speak like it's a design flaw that they can.

But as you state, it can only be backed anecdotally, which makes it something of an irrelevant justification, and thus removes the weight from your argument.

[Cynfael]

I'm pointing out the logical flaws in your generalized arguments by providing examples that the same logic could be used to justify anything, and you're simply being selective for reasons you won't explain.



No, but you did state "you only need to look at how many RDMs stop doing their actual jobs in favor of trying to do the healer's job to see what happens when we give DPS access to viable, on-demand healing."

I've been trying to get you to explain this statement -- how many RDMs do so, for clarity? -- preferably with some kind of tangible evidence or common knowledge, because as far as I can tell, there's no epidemic of RDMs trying to make their way as core healers. A handful of players stopping to throw out a heal on occasion is not a flaw of the job, it's just people throwing out unnecessary heals, like if a healer wasted a cooldown. But you continue to speak like it's a design flaw that they can.

But as you state, it can only be backed anecdotally, which makes it something of an irrelevant justification, and thus removes the weight from your argument.

Maybe there's someone else here with the patience to point out the issues with your counter-arguments, because each time I try I get more sophistry. Having a game mechanics discussion can be fun, but there's nothing new being discussed by this point. When you're asking me in apparent seriousness exactly how many RDMs I've seen use Vercure unnecessarily (and attempting to dismiss my arguments because I didn't keep tally marks on a notepad next to my desk), that's a sign that the conversation is getting a bit absurd, especially since you offer no objective evidence of your own. Also bears mentioning one more time that I never suggested that RDMs were running around being full-time healers.

I disagree what I think your position is; you disagree with what you think mine is. That works for me.

[Jandor]

IIRC it has MP limitations that somewhat mitigate its spam potential. It also tends to be abused by backseat-healing tanks, like Vercure by RDMs of a similar mindset.

2000MP & 1200 potency, 1800 potency under Requiescat. Can be used 5 times in a row. Heals you for half the HP restored if cast on someone else.

I'm not 100% sure but I think Requiescat Clemency might be the best heal in game, at least in terms of how much raw HP is restored per MP spent.

[Cynfael]

2000MP & 1200 potency, 1800 potency under Requiescat. Can be used 5 times in a row. Heals you for half the HP restored if cast on someone else.

I'm not 100% sure but I think Requiescat Clemency might be the best heal in game, at least in terms of how much raw HP is restored per MP spent.

It's definitely good, just comes with a very steep MP cost. Of course, it also interacts with Divine Veil, letting the PLD self-activate if necessary, and the healing generates at least some enmity as a byproduct, so it has additional uses.

[Eloah]

To simplify every point that everyone might be trying to make, each job as a form of self sustaining themselves and/or support for the party. It is not out of the question for people to ask for for some changes for those jobs that don't have those types of skills or have those types of skill, but in a less than effective manner. Which is why players want SMN Physick changed to something that is usable, akin to Vercure and Clemancy. Or for BLM to get back a way of dealing damage while sustaining their own HP.

This isn't a single player game, nor is it a completely multiplayer one, each job needs a way to survive. Healers and Tanks have attacks because they need to be able to do content solo. So why is it so hard to ask for DPS to have some forms of self sustain?