Dark Knight follow up thread

[ashwich]

The point is that every other tank can do something similar without using an ability that eats into your dps. It's the same as if heart of stone took ammo or if raw/nascent flash(glint) took a portion of the beast gauge (500 potency loss respectively for the sake of argument). Now imagine if the full value of that ability was not used and you're out the potency.

As it is now, the two jobs mentioned above have it as a gain no matter what. War has a self sustain out of it. Heart of stone is just free. So those jobs get the mitigation at no cost. TBN is neutral at best. It's a simple disadvantage.

All I want is good gameplay to be rewarded. If you jack up, fine, eat the 500 potency loss. But if you do it well then it's a gain and not neutral.. The idea that it's neutral or loss just sucks.

See the last part of my previous post about the comparison to other tanks. Also, how is saving my healer the need to heal 30K health worth of damage a pop not a net gain??? what do you want to gain, dps? in the severely reduced scaling of tank damage in the current exp? that very healer GCD you potentially saved is worth more than whatever dev team is willing to throw our way as some sort of "net gain".

[TouchandFeel]

Agree to disagree. I'm not a fan of the current build in a lot of ways but in my personal experience this has not been an issue I've had or heard widely complained about.

The whole "TBN should not be tied to MP and DPS" argument has only really become a thing since Xenosys Vex's post 5.0 release tank video. I don't recall ever seeing this sentiment before then and now it is all over the place

All I want is good gameplay to be rewarded. If you jack up, fine, eat the 500 potency loss. But if you do it well then it's a gain and not neutral.. The idea that it's neutral or loss just sucks.

The complication with making DA use a straight gain, such as giving Edge/Shadow a potency boost when used through DA, is that it then in turn increases the potential loss if TBN doesn't break. By increasing the potential gain, you increase the potential loss since they are not separate factors. It also then leaves the foundational problem of the shield potentially not breaking unresolved. While doing something like making DA a gain seems at first glance like a good idea, it potentially just makes the problem worse or at best, more divisive.

[ColdestHeaven]

The point is that every other tank can do something similar without using an ability that eats into your dps. It's the same as if heart of stone took ammo or if raw/nascent flash(glint) took a portion of the beast gauge (500 potency loss respectively for the sake of argument). Now imagine if the full value of that ability was not used and you're out the potency.

As it is now, the two jobs mentioned above have it as a gain no matter what. War has a self sustain out of it. Heart of stone is just free. So those jobs get the mitigation at no cost. TBN is neutral at best. It's a simple disadvantage.

All I want is good gameplay to be rewarded. If you jack up, fine, eat the 500 potency loss. But if you do it well then it's a gain and not neutral.. The idea that it's neutral or loss just sucks.

Here's the thing though: they need no cost, but theirs are in a way weaker. Be it the CD, the strength of said buff or both. Or be it the fact that they can't use it on others at will, in some cases. TBN is not neutral, period: you get shielded for 25% of your HP, which means that whichever current or future mechanic might involve taking exactly 0 damage (kinda reminded of T10, once upon a time) makes it even more relevant - even in the face of a small DPS loss. And that is when we are simply forgetting that tanks are supposed to soak in hits, so regardless of anything - this is a DEFENSIVE tool, not an offensive one, it's obvious that if you merely consider the offensive part of it you may find it underwhelming. But it's not an offensive tool, regardless of the resource it takes (and we only have offensive resources, lest we forget: MPs are for Edge/Dark, Blood is for BS/Quietus).

[Danelo]

See the last part of my previous post about the comparison to other tanks. Also, how is saving my healer the need to heal 30K health worth of damage a pop not a net gain??? what do you want to gain, dps? in the severely reduced scaling of tank damage in the current exp? that very healer GCD you potentially saved is worth more than whatever dev team is willing to throw our way as some sort of "net gain".

I read your post and congrats on taking the 1% of TBN usages and applying them to the whole. A bit snarky but if you're going to argue a point it should be on its general usage. Ideally you're healer should learn from their mistake and not get hit by the hypothetical AoE. It's dps neutral, again, at best, and considering the totality of mp regain resources within the current DRK kit it's entirely a loss.

When you compare it to other similar tank CDs it's that much worse.

[ashwich]

I read your post and congrats on taking the 1% of TBN usages and applying them to the whole. A bit snarky but if you're going to argue a point it should be on its general usage. Ideally you're healer should learn from their mistake and not get hit by the hypothetical AoE. It's dps neutral, again, at best, and considering the totality of mp regain resources within the current DRK kit it's entirely a loss.

When you compare it to other similar tank CDs it's that much worse.

What AOE though, I'm talking about using it on yourself, or your co-tank. on otherwise unavoidable damage. I fail to see how using TBN to mitigate damage puts it in the "1%". If you only want to optimize damage and have brainless defensive CDs. I'd call it taking the "lazy approach" to tanking.

[Danelo]

The times when TBN will save you but heart of stone won't are easily in the .0001% range. Again general usage of the abilities.

[Danelo]

What AOE though, I'm talking about using it on yourself, or your co-tank. on otherwise unavoidable damage. I fail to see how using TBN to mitigate damage puts it in the "1%". If you only want to optimize damage and have brainless defensive CDs. I'd call it taking the "lazy approach" to tanking.

It's poor design with no reward by comparison to other similar tank CDs.

[Tex_Mex]

The whole "TBN should not be tied to MP and DPS" argument has only really become a thing since Xenosys Vex's post 5.0 release tank video. I don't recall ever seeing this sentiment before then and now it is all over the place

That's only because Xeno is right He makes a pretty good argument for it too. The shield is great, but having it tied to DPS is just odd. The simple fix is just to remove Dark Arts and make TBN cost no mana, but more complex solutions are certainly alright. SE tends to just take the direct route though.

[Absimiliard]

Uh... We've been making this argument about TBN since it was introduced.

[Inuk9]

Sorry, unclear question.

What I meant was: "Why does DRK need to be MT in order to deal max damage", exactly? Because TBN can be used on anyone, if it needs to be used at all - you can just not use it if you feel it's hindering your DPS (which it shouldn't, if used in its intended use: burst damage, not sustained damage). There are no other skills working on damage received that concern even remotely DPS on DRK.

You got it right, that is why you need to filter out what you read in this forum. A lot of people talk nonsense without knowing the job.