Dark Knight follow up thread

[Tex_Mex]

I get it to bust just as much when I'm a mt as when I'm an ot

Completely subjective argument that will heavily differ based on the encounter. Still bad design IMO.

[Alaray]

The reward is 25% of your health worth of damage, vanished. As a tank if that's not rewarding we should just all be playing DPS. Try that a few more times than the 3 tank busters per encounter, it makes a huge difference for your healers too. Every GCD saved is a net gain.

People often talk about risk and reward, this is one of those things, why all of a sudden punishment for misuse of ability is bad? Because other tanks don't have to deal with it? I thought we all want interesting, unique and challenging mechanics for DRK.

That's not a reward, and using it on a TB guarantees a pop anyway.

For most other things, like using it on auto attacks, using it to mitigate raid wides, using it to save a party member, you're punished with a 500 potency lost for a tiny bit of mitigation (since the full shield might not be used in these instances, and a use could be small but could save someone's life who might be sitting at 2k HP). Which, in the grand scheme of healing mapping, won't be impactful enough for your healers in terms of their damage gained to make up for the damage lost.

It's not risk v reward. It's pure risk.

[ColdestHeaven]

" The issue here is that now DRK needs to be MT in order to to max damage. This is also not a good design. "

...no? Why? Why is it?

[Tex_Mex]

" The issue here is that now DRK needs to be MT in order to to max damage. This is also not a good design. "

...no? Why? Why is it?

Because SE has made it abundantly clear that they want all tanks to perform evenly in the MT and OT role.

[ColdestHeaven]

Sorry, unclear question.

What I meant was: "Why does DRK need to be MT in order to deal max damage", exactly? Because TBN can be used on anyone, if it needs to be used at all - you can just not use it if you feel it's hindering your DPS (which it shouldn't, if used in its intended use: burst damage, not sustained damage). There are no other skills working on damage received that concern even remotely DPS on DRK.

[Danelo]

The reward is 25% of your health worth of damage, vanished. As a tank if that's not rewarding we should just all be playing DPS. Try that a few more times than the 3 tank busters per encounter, it makes a huge difference for your healers too. Every GCD saved is a net gain.

People often talk about risk and reward, this is one of those things, why all of a sudden punishment for misuse of ability is bad? Because other tanks don't have to deal with it? I thought we all want interesting, unique and challenging mechanics for DRK.

The point is that every other tank can do something similar without using an ability that eats into your dps. It's the same as if heart of stone took ammo or if raw/nascent flash(glint) took a portion of the beast gauge (500 potency loss respectively for the sake of argument). Now imagine if the full value of that ability was not used and you're out the potency.

As it is now, the two jobs mentioned above have it as a gain no matter what. War has a self sustain out of it. Heart of stone is just free. So those jobs get the mitigation at no cost. TBN is neutral at best. It's a simple disadvantage.

All I want is good gameplay to be rewarded. If you jack up, fine, eat the 500 potency loss. But if you do it well then it's a gain and not neutral.. The idea that it's neutral or loss just sucks.

[Danelo]

Completely subjective argument that will heavily differ based on the encounter. Still bad design IMO.

Agree to disagree. I'm not a fan of the current build in a lot of ways but in my personal experience this has not been an issue I've had or heard widely complained about.

[Ultimatecalibur]

" The issue here is that now DRK needs to be MT in order to to max damage. This is also not a good design. "

...no? Why? Why is it?

One of the main goals of the tank changes in ShB was to make the tanks equally viable in both the MT and OT positions. This is why abilities like Blood Price and Shield Swipe, which favored being MT, were removed.

[TouchandFeel]

I couldn't disagree with you more on this aspect. It's not interesting. It's simplistic and just flat out lazy.

I could see how someone could see it as not being interesting, but how is it "just flat out lazy"? How is making TBN just like the other tank frequent-use defensive abilities less of a lazy approach? It really seems like calling a design "lazy" has become the go-to put down for something someone just simply doesn't like here on these forums.

I'd like to hear your idea for how to do it better.

I've spoken to this multiple times in different threads. I even created my own thread with detailed thoughts and suggestions on many of the issues that people are expressing DRK has.
Here is the thread, you are welcome to go and read my thoughts on TBN changes there. They are under the third hidden section labeled Dislikes and Proposed changes.

[ashwich]

For most other things, like using it on auto attacks, using it to mitigate raid wides, using it to save a party member, you're punished with a 500 potency lost for a tiny bit of mitigation (since the full shield might not be used in these instances, and a use could be small but could save someone's life who might be sitting at 2k HP). Which, in the grand scheme of healing mapping, won't be impactful enough for your healers in terms of their damage gained to make up for the damage lost.

It's not risk v reward. It's pure risk.

You're right, there are mechanics where even popping the shield is meaningless, in the grand scheme of things. for example, if you eat lightning in titania, pop LD and TBN. Yes that would be very pointless. But I'm not talking about those, lets keep those separate. And that's where the optimization comes in. Did you know in current ex trials in currently relevant gear, every 3 boss AA breaks TBN? And there are very limited opportunities throughout the encounter those continuous AAs are guaranteed. It takes a lot of "risk" and many clears to find those little timings to squeeze them in and making sure they pop. It's a game I happen to enjoy. It may not be for everyone, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily pointless.

Once you're at 1/4 or 1/3 of a healers' HPS because of TBN, I doubt it isn't "impactful". And keep in mind, this is assuming you pop all of them.