[SPOILERS]Considering that new Minfilia feature.

[Antoine_Lenheim]

I'm also legit curious in regards to what you liked about her character? What was there to like about her - except her looks, maybe?

Her story is the second reason. But the better word would be, the outcome. As I mentioned earlier, I found it pretty cruel that Minfilia was never meant to see happy end. She lost her parents, got thrown into a leading position she didnt want, suffering kidnappings and tortures. And all that just to become a vessel of Hydaelyn without any reasonable means of escaping this fate. Just because fans covered her in hate. I felt for her and hoped for her return since it was never outright said that shes dead, shes just... there.

So yeah thats basically this. I like Minfilia for being an actual diplomatic presence and for being practically the only Scion to get anything done, even if she had to do it behind the scenes. Yshtola certainly has yet to do much of value, and Alphinaud basically fucked everything up and has since replaced Minfilias role but somehow gets far less hate. Papalymo basically does nothing but snark at Yda and people seemed to care about him more. Oh, yes, The Ultimate Sacrifice!!11

Dude Thancred even outright said he wasnt into Minfilia like that back in ARR. that he loved her like a daughter. how stubbron are you to forget that?

He just said he wanted to take a role of her father since he was guilty of his death. This doesnt mean he couldnt have romantic feelings for her.

I wonder if Ryne will continue to be one of the prominent story characters post ShB and across multiple expansions like some of the other scions?

I do hope that I wont see Ryne ever again but I guess they will find some stupid way of bringing her to the Source and make her fight with us. Bleh.

[Claymore65]

Yeah, I'm going to echo CaesarCV's opinions here.

The Minifilia-> Ryse plotline is a microcosm of the Asican->Shards plotline. The Ascians want to sacrifice the new forms of life to bring back the old, and Thancred starts off the expansion on that side of the conflict. He wanted to sacrifice the new life (Ryse) for the old (Minfilia). However, through the course of the expansion, Thancred realizes his folly, and decides to let her grow into her own person. It wouldn't have felt right to sacrifice her just to bring an old character back.

As an aside, I want to explain some of why I wasn't personally a fan of Minfilia, and why people tend to think of her as useless. As someone who normally enjoys "non-combat" characters in various media, I found Minfilia to be more grating and useless than normal. There are a number of reasons for this.

Perhaps most importantly, Minfilia is directly tied to terrible gameplay. Minfilia is extremely grating from a gameplay perspective. She has two primary gameplay contributions: First to pull you back to the Waking Sands (after literally calling you) just to explain things and oftentimes send you back to wherever you just were. The Waking Sands is one of the only places without an Aethertye, so you have to drop everything you're doing to go back there. That is annoying every time it happens, and oftentimes it doesn't accompany an interesting story reveal or anything. Her second primary gameplay contribution is...fetch quests. Whereas the other Scions are directly introduced with something cool (helping you fight Ascians in the introductory storylines for the city states), she's introduced by...giving you fetch quests. This is a terrible first impression, and considering she complains about how she feels useless, and then doesn't do anything to fix it, it causes a lot of problems.

The Bigger problem though, is that everything "useful" Minfilia does is Off-Screen. Minfilia is supposed to be the primary Negotiator...but we almost never see her negotiating, or at least in interesting conversations. Instead, that honor goes to Alphinaux, who we do see making clever statements in debates and negotiations, making his skills in diplomacy seem extremely useful. Minfilia rarely felt like she's leading a debate, and the more interesting aspect of her conversations goes to the other Scions. For example, Y'Shtola is the one who calls out the Maelstrom for their aggressive actions that summoned Titan, not Minfilia. She remains remarkably passive in cutscenes, which doesn't lend credibility to her supposed diplomacy skills. Her other supposed talent is in managing the Scions and handling the bureaucracy but...once again this is either only shown through fetch quests (which are annoying). While realistically bureaucracy and logistics are invaluable skills to possess, and they're under-represented in media, they're also the boring part of war/adventuring. Since those are her primary skills they need to make them feel useful, and considering most people's opinion of Minfilia, the story failed in that regard. While we are told that the Scions would fall apart without her leadership, we aren't shown the times where she's critical to our success. We're only told that she's important. She's also supposed to be the moral support for the scions but...more often than not, we have to be her moral support. While vulnerability is really cool to see in a character, combined with her lack of on-screen assistance or combat utility, it feels like she's useless. While I'm sure there are examples of her being "useful" in the text, the fact I can't recall them easily off-hand is a problem in itself. Her coolest moment in ARR is...resisting torture, I guess? Which is impressive, but doesn't really endear me to her. For her to remain, she needed more on-screen, visible contributions to the cause than vaguely defined "leadership".

Non-combat characters can work really well, even in FFXIV. For example, Tataru is generally well-liked, and she is terrible in a combat situation. However, she never feels useless. Tataru is always shown working her hardest to help. She's shown trying to learn how to fight, even if she's comically ineffective. She manages the finances, even personally learning to Mine and Sew so she can contribute to keep the lights on. In Heavensward, she works in a bar to gather information to help our cause, oftentimes providing critical plot clues. She literally ends up cheerfully blackmailing a pirate with that information later. Tataru is great. Whenever things are getting terrible, Tataru can provide emotional support or comic relief, something Minfilia generally needed from us. As a result, Tataru ended up being a better version of our "non-combat support" than Minfilia herself.

Minfilia was (rightfully) re-tooled into the "Word of the Mother" role, which was a fascinating development for her, but overall I think the Ryne development in Shadowbringers was fantastic. Ryne is an adorable character that I can't wait to see grow and develop more.
Sorry, I've been wanting to rant about that for awhile, ha ha.

[Eloah]

well stated statement

I feel this is the right of it. You aren't saying Minfilia is bad in general, it's just peoples perception based on how we interact with her. It's sorta like hearing rumors about someone and just believing them without actually getting to know the person. And while it is true the Scions "fell apart" without her, it never really felt like it to us.

And on the subject of Tataru, she's a spy you know, lol.

[Antoine_Lenheim]

Long rant

Maybe she is too efficient, because we don't see that, just she telling us what we have to do. And even that is not exactly true, we have seen several times she talking with her contacts or telling us she is going to move through them to find what we need. For some reason she just doesnt get enough credit for her role. We know she is in contact with all the leaders, research all she can about the threats that we fight, and we can win because we know where to strike and how thanks to her, most of the time. We dont have to see her actually doing it because then cutscenes would take an hour.

And the fact that, unlike Alph, we don't see her talking with the leaders doesn't mean that she doesn't, because we know she does. To the point of protecting the Scions from the influence of the Syndicate, something Alph wasn't able to do for the Crystal Braves.

And what about the scene with her unwilling to bend to Livia's or Nabriales' abuse of her? That was strong enough to me. She's strong in her strength of will, and I honestly don't see why people tend to forget these things as well.

On a topic with Tataru, I dont know, I felt like her role and her personality were over exaggerated. She gets slack for being devious and because shes useful for getting the scions into places. Which is what Minfilia used to do but without being a Lalafell. Minfilia actually comes out to meet you on a few occasions. Like during the snowcloak stuff she meets with the ishgardians (and actually wears a big coat because her normal outfit is stupid in the snow, unlike Alphinaud, the dingus.) Tataru has "gone out and worked for it like twice, and both times she failed miserably. She generally spends her time standing in a room supposedly gathering leads and funds, but you're also only told this most of the time. Sge sometimes gets to "show" but is largely a bigger "tell" character than Minfilia was. The early section of Stormblood has us seeking passage to Kugane by sea and so we go to Limsa Lominsa to avoid the obvious solution and ask the criminally underutilized Admiral Merlwyb. Instead, Tataru blackmails an on-the-spot made-up Isgardian moonlighting as a sailor to do it. If anyone had good Intel on passage to the Far East, it was Merlwyb or even one of her subordinates. Other than that, Tataru just hangs out in dive bars to relay us very little or lives it up in Kugane where she claims,to do the bookeeping.

Bookeeping on the twelve-knows-what, I always have to fund myself. With that gear that buy multiple houses, as Tataru goes out of her way to fourth wall. I didn't have a house at the time and knew that stung others.

She mean. Minfilia was always kind.

[FJerome]

Being a leader and actually managing all the money, contacts, workers, etc, is hard and unexciting work, and I know that's exactly what Minf does, but I know it because she is the leader, not because we see her doing that.

She generally spends her time standing in a room supposedly gathering leads and funds, but you're also only told this most of the time. Sge sometimes gets to "show" but is largely a bigger "tell" character than Minfilia was.

You can't say in one breath that Minfilia was a good leader who took care of all the necessary financial things, because that's just what leaders do, and then in the next complain about how we're told that Tataru is actually doing it. You can complain how it should have been Minfilia, that's valid, and yeah, Tataru took a while to get good at the job - but Minfilia's position as written was more a religious figurehead than a pragmatic leader. Livia sas Junius even refers to her as the Scion's priestess at one point.

The early section of Stormblood has us seeking passage to Kugane by sea and so we go to Limsa Lominsa to avoid the obvious solution and ask the criminally underutilized Admiral Merlwyb. Instead, Tataru blackmails an on-the-spot made-up Isgardian moonlighting as a sailor to do it.

Carvallain has been an established NPC in Limsa since 1.0 and what Tataru blackmails him with, his real identity, was something that had been hinted at for years. It was pretty much the opposite of on-the-spot made-up.

[Claymore65]

Comments about Doing stuff Off-Screen

As much as I like talking about lore and storytelling, you have to understand something important: this game is a story. One of the most basic rule of story-telling is "Show, don't tell." If something isn't demonstrated directly in the text, the onus is not on the reader to assume they're doing something useful off-screen. The onus is on the storyteller to make a character's motivations, actions, and dialog compelling. I'm glad to hear you enjoyed her as a character, but a lot of people did not.

I'd like to reiterate, this isn't about Combat Utility, this is about Narrative Utility. Characters need to have skills, knowledge, or talents that allow them to push the plot forward, or at the very least create interesting situations for scenes. Comic relief characters (such as Tataru), provide a valuable service to the plot, releasing tension when it's required. Urianger has a wealth of ancient prophecies and prior knowledge that have solved countless problems for us. Y'Shtola is an incredibly skilled and knowledgeable researcher, who provides the bulk of our explanations on how magic works. While Cid has helped us with a gunblade on occasion, his primary skills are not combat-oriented, yet most people tend to like him. Through poor storytelling, they failed to establish what Minfilia was providing from a narrative perspective, at least for a lot of players. All she really provided was...telling you where you're going next. Since she didn't personally develop a lot as a character, so a lot of players didn't get invested in her there as well.

Also, super minor nitpick: the Caravallein is actually an Ishgardian nobleman reveal wasn't pulled out their ass. That character had existed for a while, and his strange heritage was hinted at/explored in some side quests in Heavensward, and this was paid off in a minor but fun scene. Like I said, super minor nitpick though.

[Antoine_Lenheim]

Long rant

Also, on the point of questgiving. Therein lies the conundrum of the Scions, not just Minfillia. Due to the nature of the game (an MMORPG), and the western playerbase being action-heavy, wanting crazy accolades to be given to them and paradoxically not have to work for them.

Imagine if FFXIV was a single player Final Fantasy game. There would be no Warrior of Light. One would play as The Scions. Think about it. Alphinaud your arcanist/summoner, Alisae your arcanist/red mage, Urianger a summoner/black mage, Yda your Monk, Papalymo a black mage, Thancred a thief/ninja, Moenbryda scholar/warrior, Y'shtola a white mage and Minfillia the FFXIV equivalent of a FF5 freelancer. Their actions and story are affected because the Warrior of Light exists. With the WoL doing seemingly everything, the Scions appear to not do anything in return.

Which leads to my next point: The western player base is ludicrously action oriented with barely any account for passivity or balance between the two. It's all "Do, do, do, fight, fight, fight. If I'm not seeing you doing anything at this very second, you are useless." Coupled with "I've fought Gods, I killed big mean monsters, why do I have to do something less than that?" This becomes a nightmare for any kind of story for a game that features an adventurer as a playable character.

People forget that any task, no matter how menial, an adventurer will do with no problems. In fact they live for this and strangely enough, this is also one of those rare times where the adventurer may say what they think about their life as an adventurer. If people have played and seen the Dark Knight questline from level 30 to 50, the player can see the thoughts of the Warrior of Light.

The paradox comes in when the player wants other people or NPCs to do their work for them! That is the very antithesis of the adventurer. The tasks that the WoL does go from menial to legendary, and then settles somewhere in between. Don't be surprised when NPCs have you do any from of task. The WoL is just that dependable. Now I wonder if it is by the nature of the game or by design that things are as they are.

And what a cruel joke this is that in order to become "useful" for the majority of players and get development, she needed to become a tool and die. What a cheap, lazy-ass writing.

[QT_Melon]

I'm afraid that you're the one in denial here. There is far more proof to the contrary of any romantic notions between them, to the point where he has to tell people it's "not like that" -- such as the cutscene where Krile intentionally teases Thancred about his fondness for Minfilia (implying there is something going on between them), which simply annoys him and causes him to explain exactly why he's fond of her (ie. non-romantically), which puts Krile in her place and causes her to apologize. There have been several moments like this that dilute any and all romantic notions in favour of reaffirming players that he is very close to her for father-figure reasons (which have been mentioned in some shape or form in every. single. expansion).

Yeah God forbid that a guy actually be blunt about his actual feelings. They must be romantic!

[RopeDrink]

If you are so determined in not accepting that his feelings were romantic.

I'm afraid that you're the one in denial here. There is far more proof to the contrary of any romantic notions between them, to the point where he has to tell people it's "not like that" -- such as the cutscene where Krile intentionally teases Thancred about his fondness for Minfilia (implying there is something going on between them), which simply annoys him and causes him to explain exactly why he's fond of her (ie. non-romantically), which puts Krile in her place and causes her to apologize. There have been several moments like this that dilute any and all romantic notions in favour of reaffirming players that he is very close to her for father-figure reasons (which have been mentioned in some shape or form in every. single. expansion).

It is also part of the reason he is torn up in Shadowbringers given he once again adopts that same role, except this time it is for someone who is Minfilia only in name/connection, but not really her. To make matters worse, this 'not-really-Minfilia' may or may not replace 'his' Minfilia, the one he's gutted over having been unable to protect multiple times. It's out of his control and it galls him, with a living reminder right there by his side. It is only when the matter is resolved that he can move past it.

And once again, not a single romantic thread was spun once even this expansion, which has given more background and lore on their relationship in a short space of time compared to some previous expos over their entirety. Even the maybe-maybe not 'I love you' (which is pure assumption) can refer to any kind of love. Given the context of their relationship over all these years, it is easy to attribute it to his role as her carer and protector. Some might choose to believe it is something more and that's fine, but be sure to revisit their story over the years to see why it is not likely. Also, be mindful when you tell people off for not adhering to what can only really be called 'head-canon' (which is what it is given there is so little evidence whatsoever of any romantic interest at all between the two). Even if you could find any, it pales in comparison to the contrary, often from his own dialogue and in-game cutscenes.

-----

As for the topic itself, Minfilia was an outright disaster of characterization which goes beyond FFXIV. She annoyed players in another title/spin-off of which the name escapes me. She was destined to fail when reduced to being a short-lived 'fetch-quest giver' with a penchant for getting into trouble and needing saving, without ever actually contributing a whole lot to compensate. This is no fault of Minfilia herself but the writers - and it is no surprise that such characters end up either unpopular or, at worst, simply hated. Ryne is a soft-reset of the character (without totally neglecting Minfilia's own background or her ties with Thancred). After all, she said herself that she (Minfilia) will be part of Ryne, but it was all essentially a way of starting her over from scratch.

You don't have to like Ryne, but if you're going to dislike her anyway, try not to do so under the assumption that she's merely a 'replacement Minfilia'. She's her own character and has seen more development in this one new story than Minfilia ever had since her inception in FFXIV to the present.

I know it sucks when a character you like is dealt a hand you're not satisfied with and there is nothing wrong with being a bit upset or miffed at it -- it shows a passion for the story/characters when this happens, which is good -- but be careful of how that anger/sadness impacts your overall enjoyment of everything else. The story and characterization in Shadowbringers has been an absolute gem thus far and it'd be a big shame to spoil it due to one plot thread you're not overly keen on. We've only just got started and I have no doubt Minfilia will be mentioned or still have an impact in some way down the road.