The state of Monk in Shadowbringers (long)

[Physic]

ROF slowing us down is the biggest insult to monks. i get it, some people cant handle the speed (its still not that fast even with gl4 if you ever played other mmos or action games) but there are other jobs for them. We need speed we want speed. 1.0 gcd would be a perfect replacement for rof slow down. Just a full burst of power and speed in an all out mode. Do that and id have no complaints with monk. TK is fine. sure it can be tweaked but ROF is the biggest problem

the idea of rof, is essentially making a more powerful combo time period, it doesn't actually slow you down much if you have gcds. This is essentially when the martial artists shifts from a light speedy style to a heavy hard hitting style, and with ogcds, it was pretty fun.

they could go the opposite direction(faster but weaker), but there would be less synergy with it, since you wouldn't get much advantage out of ogcds

Anyhow whatever they do, they need to focus on making it more entertaining

[Physic]

That is a pretty bland argument, however your taste aside there is no logical reason why a buff has such a negative impact on a players ability to use its rotation, and lets be clear RoF is just discount B4B, also "running enough speed"? playing at 2.9k+ Sks really does nothing, after a certain point the gain is minimal at best so that number doesnt tell me how fast you were but how ignorant on the class inner workings you are, having a high SkS is not always the best since you know GL is a thing because after a point it literally does nothing. Either way the only reason that justified the existance of RoF slow down is no longer there ( Double weaving) since now we only have 3 oGCD one of which is hidden behind a very incoherent RNG. Either way speed variance is not a viable thing for this class since its whole point (job quest, descripition and core mechanics) is to go fast, all the time, not go fast some times. Monk hits fast not hard. Anywho the clear lack of direction is FF14 devs fault so i blame them.

rof wasn't a dps loss, it was a pretty large dps gain. 30% more damage with 15% speed reduction. that's a straight up dps boost, add to that, ogcds were uneffected, so this allowed you to use them at 30% more damage for no loss to speed. This means rof, is more effective than a flat 15% dps buff if used properly. It was extremely satisying to pull off high dmg combos.

yes, now, without the ogcds, it's not as fun. Sounds like the fast class should have more ogcd skills.

[reyre]

rof wasn't a dps loss, it was a pretty large dps gain. 30% more damage with 15% speed reduction. that's a straight up dps boost, add to that, ogcds were uneffected, so this allowed you to use them at 30% more damage for no loss to speed. This means rof, is more effective than a flat 15% dps buff if used properly. It was extremely satisying to pull off high dmg combos.

yes, now, without the ogcds, it's not as fun. Sounds like the fast class should have more ogcd skills.

When did i say it was a dps loss? i never argue that it was a gain, are you sure you read properly? Why is it so hard for people to actually read.

[Saito_]

I've just recently picked up SAM and was baffled why they did not use the mechanic, of the kenki gauge for MNK and the chakra, instead of the crit rng bs. It would've complemented the playstyle perfectly imho. First granting a chakra on correct positional for snap and demo and later for each snap and demo. And leveling my HW Monk up to 74 now, did not feel any different than lvling from 50 to 60. And I don't feel a big change coming, even with lvl 80, SSS and Anatman. Based on how the encounters were desinged so far both will be niche.


I'd like to change 2 things about monk: 1. Give us 100% control about how to gain chakra 2. Give us the option to spend (all) our chakra stacks for (maxed) GL stacks.

[Physic]

When did i say it was a dps loss? i never argue that it was a gain, are you sure you read properly? Why is it so hard for people to actually read.

i guess when you said messing up you rotation, i assumed you meant a loss of dps. I don't consider using skills in ways that increase dmg to be a messed up rotation. I associate a messed up rotation with a loss off output or effeciency.

it does change your rotatation for a short time, but i don't consider that a mess up. even drums which provide the rhythmic base of songs usually change it up once or twice per 3 minute song.

now, i could see the argument, that the change up didn't have the right rhythm, but that doesn't mean the idea is bad just the execution, it's also a bit subjective but that's fair feedback, as long as you don't present it as objective truth.

[Shurrikhan]

That is a pretty bland argument, however your taste aside there is no logical reason why a buff has such a negative impact on a players ability to use its rotation, and lets be clear RoF is just discount B4B, also "running enough speed"? playing at 2.9k+ Sks really does nothing, after a certain point the gain is minimal at best so that number doesnt tell me how fast you were but how ignorant on the class inner workings you are, having a high SkS is not always the best since you know GL is a thing because after a point it literally does nothing. Either way the only reason that justified the existance of RoF slow down is no longer there ( Double weaving) since now we only have 3 oGCD one of which is hidden behind a very incoherent RNG. Either way speed variance is not a viable thing for this class since its whole point (job quest, descripition and core mechanics) is to go fast, all the time, not go fast some times. Monk hits fast not hard. Anywho the clear lack of direction is FF14 devs fault so i blame them.

The stat value required to trim a percent of one's GCD decreases with time since the stat cost to trim a single .01 second increment stays basically constant. There is no point at which SkS "does nothing". There isn't even a soft cap for SkS. With Arrow and FW, I would drop below the 1.75 GCD previously assumed to be the GCD lower limit outside of fixed GCD lengths (e.g. the 1.5 psudeo-GCD). I could probably do your non-RoF GL3 speed even when in my RoF. Is that clear enough for you?

But, my all means, point out where in the lore text where it says that a Monk outside of GL4 is not a Monk at all, and why that makes any and all speed variance "not viable".

You can't simultaneously have a "lack of direction" and an absolute and obvious direction which all Monk changes should follow (and whatever complexity be damned in the process if need be, apparently).

A devil's advocate, if you will: Maybe, just maybe, there was a direction in, say, HW or SB Monk... and you simply didn't like what they'd chosen.

Stance-free DoT-weaving for positional management and rotational variance? Nooo, I don't like it so that couldn't be an actual part of what makes a Monk. TK, RoF, and rotational variance? Well that must be outright anti-Monk, whatever the job quests say.

[Xaert]

snip

In the very early stages of the Pugilist questline (although it can be said it was for Pugilist only, though I think no one actually considers the pre-job class playstyle as any differing from the actual job) they say that the idea (of Pugilist) is to strike fast multiple times before they can do a single one. At the end of the Stormblood expansion for the Monk lore quests, Widargelt actually says that the way Monks fight currently is wrong. To remedy this, they actually bring back Pugilist through Grandmaster Hamon saying that Monk needs the fast-striking power that they employ to beat their foe, the Death Corps. Yet despite this being in the lore quest, there's no indication that Monk's fighting style changed more to closely accompany how the job quests say it will evolve. I viewed this as a huge slap to the face, personally, since the lore itself clearly states that Monk is supposed to be evolving into a fast-hitting version of Monk just like Pugilist, our precursor job.

As for the direction of Monk, they definitely had an idea for Heavensward for the job and is actually my favorite rendition of Monk. Form Shift is still one of the most pivotal Monk skills, Elixir Field is now our only oGCD that hasn't been gutted, and Chakras give us our "gauge" mechanic as every class got and gave us something to do in downtime away from boss and transition, though it didn't save our Greased Lightning. Purification helped with quick draining TP issues as Invigoration wasn't enough in some cases, though that soon became a thing of the past; I don't want to downplay its efficacy at the time though. Tornado Kick gave us the stack dump at a very respectable potency at the time, as phase transitions in HW were aplenty. IIRC the only things Monk wanted was a bit of raid utility (since the Delete Monk meme was a thing) and a way to build Chakra in battle. Monk felt fantastic, and I honestly didn't care if I wasn't raid meta, the class was simply so enjoyable to play, I didn't care.

Now for Stormblood, I reaaaaally don't think they had a concrete idea for the direction of Monk and were just kinda throwing things in there as an afterthought or experimental which should've been ironed out before release. Our class' identity was wholly and completely replaced by Samurai, leaving us in an enormous gray area as to what we are. We got our Chakra generation in battle, but was tied behind RNG on RNG: a chance to crit having a chance to proc a Chakra. No one likes RNG dependent DPS, just look at 3.0 MCH and how popular it was. Riddle of Earth was and still is a broken skill that should just refresh GL on activation or be removed to have Form Shift refresh GL duration cycling from Coeurl to Opo-Opo. Tackle Mastery was a joke that still gets me to chuckle to this day, though I am thankful that it gave us the TK rotation. Riddle of Fire is the main gripe with the entire class among a majority of Monks, and while I don't speak for every Monk by far, you can't ignore that it's the most controversial Monk skill to date. To remove our Haste granted by GL (but not to auto-attacks) and give us a damage buff in place of it just made the class feel terrible if you've played it at all before, even just moderately. Brotherhood gave us raid utility, but at first didn't even apply the damage buff to ourselves; it also then and still now only affects Physical DPS, ensuring Monk is composition locked to bring out it's full potential maybe, as Chakra generation through this was still RNG. Perfect Balance was reduced to 60 seconds, too, later in Stormblood but was reverted in Shadowbringers back to 2 minutes.

So... which would you think has the better class direction? I get the devil's advocate thing, but this is just one of many cases of the Devs saying one thing and then implementing the opposite. If that doesn't sound like poor direction of what they want the class to be, please elaborate upon this.

[Shurrikhan]

So... which would you think has the better class direction? I get the devil's advocate thing, but this is just one of many cases of the Devs saying one thing and then implementing the opposite. If that doesn't sound like poor direction of what they want the class to be, please elaborate upon this.

The devil's advocate bit was only that. My point was merely that Monk doesn't need to throw all its eggs into one basket or streamlined characteristic in order to feel like a "Monk". I've seen that go horribly awry in too many MMOs, where everything that wasn't considered absolutely central was cut away, with little to no replacements for the majority of mechanical complexity of the job, which came primarily from those more eclectic parts, and the "personality" of the class, most agreed, suffered for those changes.

I feel both Monk and Pugilist before it, are underdeveloped. I just don't think that constant, highest possible speed should be the defining trait to the exclusion of all else. Why? Well, honestly, because I liked what happened when I could actually feel the changes in speed due to occasionally dropping from that maximum. It made me feel that speed more, and offered additional concerns of sync and engaged so much more of the surrounding toolkit as a result. I didn't hate 4.0 Monk, exactly, but I hated that it was the replacement for HW Monk, which was probably the most fun, on average, I'd had on any job/class/spec in any MMO up to that point. What was added with 4.2 Monk, though, brought it right back, and I hate that we've again gone and trimmed some of the best parts just because they weren't considered "central". Tackle Mastery was too tangential? Okay, gone. Do we get anything to replace its complexity or urgency? Nah. That wouldn't be "Monk" enough.

...

I can find my old 4.0 and 4.2 posts giving the same exact complaints about Brotherhood and Deep Meditation (though with a larger focus on how it unwittingly nerfed Meditation itself to near-oblivion), etc., but I would hazard that our opinions on this are pretty similar. I'm just not willing to sacrifice what I see as good, even if eclectic, elements or ones that might seem counter-intuitive to, though in doing so better engaging, our main goals of gameplay just to have a single central characteristic.

[Xaert]

The devil's advocate bit was only that. My point was merely that Monk doesn't need to throw all its eggs into one basket or streamlined characteristic in order to feel like a "Monk". I've seen that go horribly awry in too many MMOs, where everything that wasn't considered absolutely central was cut away, with little to no replacements for the majority of mechanical complexity of the job, which came primarily from those more eclectic parts, and the "personality" of the class, most agreed, suffered for those changes.

Ahhh, I get you on that bit. Monk's core should assuredly be the class that emphasizes speed in it's kit the most though, but only as its core. That's another huge issue that has plagued the development team, which is that 2.0 Monk was considered "a complete job" at that time by the devs, so they were out of ideas as to what they could engineer to evolve the class and it clearly still shows. Monk should go fast, I don't think many people would argue that, but that shouldn't be the final product, simply another facet of the class. But would the devs think the same? I think they're under the impression that Monk being fast would simply be too much of a troublesome playstyle for players to perform with, so adding anything more onto the plate of "going fast" would make it an unpopular job, but that's where we are now anyway.

I don't miss Tackle Mastery at all, though; for their first implementation of a stance-based morphing ability, it quite possibly have been the worst oGCD to apply it to. The TK rotation was nice because of it, but I don't think that gives enough leeway to have it exist as any skill that would immediately give a stack of GL would have taken the place of it. The only saving grace is that it did exactly that. On that note, I don't think we should have the fist stances anymore, cause while they are a part of Monk, it really doesn't affect anything about Monk's playstyle, even to this day. Fists of Fire for damage at the opener, Fists of Wind for everything else. Why not just have a single trait for it instead of having two for two stances? What even is considered "Monk" these days?

[Guulu]

my personal 5.0 MNK wish list:
1.delete monk