Something about the new Ascian lore

[Seraphor]

That's my take, too. A lot of people are still treating Hydaelyn as if she is a deity - but she is not, she's a Primal and our character is a Primal slayer.

It'd be rather disappointing to me if it turns out that Hydaelyn is conveniently the exception to the rule and needs to stick around but Zodiark is bad news and needs to go. I want a bolder, more nuanced story than that.

Light=evil and Darkness=good is just as derivative these days. I'd find it just as disappointing.
The story can be nuanced without being a cliche.

So far, the vast majority of primals have been summoned due to Ascian teachings, meaning that most primals we've faced are at least somewhat related to Zodiark's summoning, sharing the tempering effects and high aether costs.

Hydaelyn could represent an entirely different school of summoning that we haven't really seen anywhere else.

And again, take note of the methods of summoning.
Zodiark required the sacrifice of half of the population, but conveniently not the convocation of 14(13) who actually summoned him.
Hydaelyn was summoned by the self-sacrifice of those who summoned her. (hints that it could be 'the twelve')

Zodiark represents selfish self-preservation.
Hydaelyn represents selfless sacrifice for the benefit of others.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if that very distinction means everything towards the nature of the summoned primal. It is a Final Fantasy after all.
And what have the Scions done when invoking a summoning ritual so far? Louisoix? Papalymo?

[QT_Melon]

And again, take note of the methods of summoning.
Zodiark required the sacrifice of half of the population, but conveniently not the convocation of 14(13) who actually summoned him.
Hydaelyn was summoned by the self-sacrifice of those who summoned her. (hints that it could be 'the twelve')

Zodiark represents selfish self-preservation.
Hydaelyn represents selfless sacrifice for the benefit of others.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if that very distinction means everything towards the nature of the summoned primal. It is a Final Fantasy after all.
And what have the Scions done when invoking a summoning ritual so far? Louisoix? Papalymo?

..Louisoix...have you actually done the coil storyline?

I don't think the person you quoted was also arguing over a reverse of roles, rather that the story may be saying that ALL primals may have their faults including the eldest of the two. This whole story is about how light and dark is about aspects necessary to sustain life.

(But besides that it's funny that you find light(white) being "bad" when culturally White is considered death in some cultures anyways)

As far as summoning, where did you get that none of the council sacrificed? The population that sacrificed were voluntary but we still don't know the story if the council demanded others for the first attempt - other than they were overseeing the summoning.

That said it's hard to call something a DEATH God when the very reason to summon it was to keep from total annihilation/extinction, I mean otherwise we wouldn't have a story period. Final Days happens, planet is done, no Ancients, no Zodiark, no Hydaelyn.

We don't know if they KNEW tempering was the side effect, there's evidence that it's possible depending on when the 14th (strongly hinted WoL) member left. We don't know who was tempered to date for sure. I mean we have clues it may have been those involved in the summoning, and or others around.

If anything seems that they were content at the very least to do the first 2 sets of sacrifice because 1. No Planet, no game. 2. No life (:P)

It was the third where we got the counterbalance because it was going too far at that point. I mean why was Hyydaelyn made not immediately after if the first set of sacrifices was a real problem?

[Seraphor]

Then you don't understand what a death cult is.
A belief system that requires and glorifies a living sacrifice.
This is Zodiark.

Not a "death god" some kind of deity that personifies or causes death.

[LineageRazor]

We have still never seen anyone disobey Hydaelyn which calls into question whether they are tempered by her.

Others have brought up several examples of folks blessed by Hydaelyn who disobey her. (Another example I didn't see brought up was that Warrior of Light who summoned High Seraph Ultima against Hydaelyn's wishes in the Ivalice storyline.) But probably the clincher is that WE, the player character, are one such blessed. The writers bend over backwards to try to leave the WoL as much a blank slate as possible, for the player to fill in with whatever personality they like. They're not going to pull a Bioshock down the road later on with the shocking reveal that you've been a slave all along. That kind of twist stands directly contrary to the kind of narrative they're using to appeal to the players: You are a paragon among men and women, heroically righting wrongs, fighting evil, and protecting the world. All of that becomes meaningless, if you're being COMPELLED to do those things - narrative railroading notwithstanding.

Light=evil and Darkness=good is just as derivative these days. I'd find it just as disappointing.
The story can be nuanced without being a cliche.

I don't think Theodric is advocating "Darkness=good" either - he's more about the cynical "all beings of greater power than humans must die to make way for humans" philosophy popularized by the Shin Megami Tensei franchise - with the difference that in SMT, the opposing deities really DID want to control humanity and be worshiped by them, whereas the deities in this game show no such inclination. Not even Zodiark, really; left to his own devices, he'd likely be content to leave humans be since they have no power of Creation. It's the Ascians that want to serve everyone up on a silver platter as a sacrifice.

The problem with declaring anything "cliche", though, is ALL these scenarios are cliche - or, at least, they are all known and well-worn tropes. Evil god is actually evil and good is good? The classic. Evil god is actually good, and vice versa? Watta tweest! Been done to death. BOTH gods are bad news? Sucks to be you! But been there. No real villains, just different points of view? Been there, as well. Honestly, the scenario you're rooting for really boils down to your own personal preference - but it's pretty bad form to denounce the ones you DON'T favor as being cliche, boring, or over-used, when these traits could apply to your own favored scenario, as well.

[QT_Melon]

Then you don't understand what a death cult is.
A belief system that requires and glorifies a living sacrifice.
This is Zodiark.

Not a "death god" some kind of deity that personifies or causes death.

It took sacrifice to also create Hydaelyn. So there isn't that much of a difference. Or are we just gonna turn a blind eye because of the number of sacrifices?

Like I said, it didn't seem to be that much of an issue with the first 2 sacrifices. It was the third that became an issue, and the idea of the third was a problem that a group went off and made another sacrifice.

I just don't see the problem in a black and white aspect. I think each solution came with their own set of problems. The fact that it may not have been known about being tempered is probably why the summoners of Hydaelyn may have completely sacrificed their own summoners (whereas the Conv of the 13 may have sacrificed a portion along with volunteers - we're not certain). Planted a command in Hydaelyn to circumvent further tempering with the "Hear Feel Think".

I think the problem people are having with at least the regular "Good = Good, Bad = Bad" is less than it being cliche, but that would just make this xpac really change nothing but over explaining the origin story. I think that's where people were talking about in terms of nuance. Something *juicy* wanting to happen than just playing DBZ (power ups).

[Iscah]

From me, for one, though others may have considered the idea independently. It's my theory that the Lifestream is the "new life" Zodiark created in order to heal the world (the command he needed the second sacrifice to fulfill). Life that existed prior to the creation of the Lifestream (such as the Ancients) are incompatible with the Lifestream. Their souls don't dissolve into it properly, and they remain whole (if Sundered), occasionally being reborn into mortal bodies while other mortals get newly constructed souls fashioned from Lifestream Aether. This incompatibility is a big part of the reason why I think the Lifestream didn't exist before Zodiark.

This is still all conjecture though. We don't know for certain that non-Ancient souls aren't permanent as well - and at least some descriptions indicate that they are.

The problem with declaring anything "cliche", though, is ALL these scenarios are cliche - or, at least, they are all known and well-worn tropes. Evil god is actually evil and good is good? The classic. Evil god is actually good, and vice versa? Watta tweest! Been done to death. BOTH gods are bad news? Sucks to be you! But been there. No real villains, just different points of view? Been there, as well. Honestly, the scenario you're rooting for really boils down to your own personal preference - but it's pretty bad form to denounce the ones you DON'T favor as being cliche, boring, or over-used, when these traits could apply to your own favored scenario, as well.

This is my feeling as well. It seems like there are so many stories already (including FF) where the gods turn out to be 'bad' and have to be torn down.

Having Hydaelyn confirmed to be good all along feels like a twist in itself. A pleasant one that I'm hoping for, but certainly not something that can be taken for granted. She's still not the actual creator-goddess She was initially portrayed as, but that doesn't mean anything short of being villainous is "not enough of a twist".

In fact it's still possible She'll have to be torn down - but also possible that She wants to be... but perhaps only once Zodiark is defeated and Her purpose is fulfilled. Or perhaps to give the last of Her power so we can defeat Him.

[Zohar_Lahar]

Hydaelyn could represent an entirely different school of summoning that we haven't really seen anywhere else.

In Akademia Anyder, we see a similar small-scale summoning of "Guardian Force" Quetzacoatl, which may have been a prototype of how Hydaelyn might have been summoned much later. And we also saw one other primal summoned through summoner sacrifice: Shinryu (though others were also sacrificed in the process).

[Kokomi]

It seems like there are so many stories already (including FF) where the gods turn out to be 'bad' and have to be torn down.

Having Hydaelyn confirmed to be good all along feels like a twist in itself. A pleasant one that I'm hoping for, but certainly not something that can be taken for granted. She's still not the actual creator-goddess She was initially portrayed as, but that doesn't mean anything short of being villainous is "not enough of a twist".

In fact it's still possible She'll have to be torn down - but also possible that She wants to be... but perhaps only once Zodiark is defeated and Her purpose is fulfilled. Or perhaps to give the last of Her power so we can defeat Him.

I feel a bit differently given what we've seen from FFXIV so far. The story has always portrayed the Scions, and by extension Hydaelyn, in a positive light. The Scions have always been right, whether fighting primals and befriending beast tribes, working to repair the conflict between man and dragon, or liberating Doma and Ala Mhigo. FFXIV honestly has a rather comfy and optimistic narrative even though some things in the background are quite messed up. Even when someone good dies, it is almost always a well-timed noble sacrifice. The few times I remember the story straying into darker territory was 2.55 (which was mostly a fake out), 3.1 and 3.2, and Tsuyu and Fordola's stories from StB.

I would be pleasantly surprised if it turned out Hydaelyn was not good/created with good intentions, but I doubt they will go this route. Banri Oda (MSQ writer) has said that he doesn't think players will like stories that are too dark or complex, and I think this is true in general.

[Absimiliard]

Zodiark represents selfish self-preservation.
Hydaelyn represents selfless sacrifice for the benefit of others.

We know nothing of Zodiark's own personality. What we do know is that the Ancients willingly sacrificed themselves to summon it twice; once to stop the apocalypse, once to make the planet habitable again. The intended third summoning was, as far as we know, supposed to bring back those that willingly gave their lives for a cause they believed in - to give back to the heroes that had so selflessly given themselves for the greater cause. The Convocation likely could not sacrifice themselves due to the risk it would pose to their race in such dire times. After all, who is to say how long those particular Ancients had been running the show? Suddenly passing the reins in the middle of an extinction level event is a good way to expedite the downfall instead of halting it.

All we know of Hydaelyn's summoning is that it was carried out by a group of dissenters that did not like the idea of sacrificing the very life Zodiark bore to bring back those whose lives were freely given. We do not know the exact number of lives given to create Hydaelyn, but we do know it was more than twelve Ancients.

None of this reads to me like the primals would be the embodiment of selfishness. I am, however, curious as to where you found these things that the Twelve were somehow involved with Hydaelyn's summoning. The only signs of the Twelve we have even seen so far are related to the Navigator, I believe. What's more, it could just as easily be that post-sundering primitives saw these symbols and concocted the Twelve on their own. We've no way to know one way or the other.

Banri Oda (MSQ writer) has said that he doesn't think players will like stories that are too dark or complex, and I think this is true in general.

This is sadly true. Those of us that prefer a more nuanced approach to things are a minority. Most would rather get their feel goods from being the lolhero again.

[Iscah]

None of this reads to me like the primals would be the embodiment of selfishness. I am, however, curious as to where you found these things that the Twelve were somehow involved with Hydaelyn's summoning. The only signs of the Twelve we have even seen so far are related to the Navigator, I believe. What's more, it could just as easily be that post-sundering primitives saw these symbols and concocted the Twelve on their own. We've no way to know one way or the other.

There's no evidence for the Twelve being Hydaelyn's summoners - it's just conjecture at this point, based on repeated hints that the gods Eorzeans know as the Twelve may not be real, combined with the idea that believed deities such as the primals can often be traced to a 'real' historical figure (eg. Shiva, Garuda, Moggle Mog). It was already hypothesised that the story might therefore be setting up for the reveal that the Twelve were some kind of historical figures lost to time... and now we have a yet-undetailed group of people from the reality behind the "age of creation" that the lorebook says was believed to take place before the cycle of Calamities, umbral and astral eras began.

It could be unrelated, but from the way the game tends to set up its plot points, there's a fair chance they'll turn out to be the truth behind the Twelve. We still shouldn't assume it at this point though.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the only signs of the Twelve we have even seen so far" being related to the Navigator though. What signs are you thinking of?

We have prayer-stones for all the Twelve, and signs that all have been worshipped for a long time... but I can't think what you're meaning is directly related to Llymlaen above all others. The only thing I can remember that's older than even the Fifth Astral Era is the Meracydian temple in Azys Lla that has Azeyma's symbol on it.