5.0 WAR is a disappointment

[Lucy_Pyre]

Pld has 2 damage windows, war has one, pld needs to manage mp by pushing as manu attonments as he could.
Pld needs to know which one should he start and how should he start and it varies depending on the content or number of enemies, war rotation is set in stone and even aoe and single target does not differ to each other.
Pld has bigger CPM on average than war.
More buttons to press is still more buttons.
In tanks environment those differences are huge deal. They are different and their dynamics are different and ifs also a reason why pld is praised so much, bcs he is more fun to play.

Paladin has absolutely zero mana "management". The only "management" of mana you have to do is to make sure you regenerate it all between the time that your magic combo ends and Req comes off CD, so if you count simply doing your rotation as normal mana "management" then sure, I guess?

-snip-

Did you seriously just say that MCH is a "top damage output"? You uh, might wanna double check on your facts there friend, cuz that ain't it chief.

As for the rest; Gunbreaker is more complex than the other tanks in every sense of the word, and there is a lot more optimization on a per-fight basis that that job is capable of doing than the others. Just because you always use Gnashing, Blasting, etc on CD doesn't change the fact that GNB is objectively more complex than WAR, and regardless of what Yoshida said on it I personally don't believe that WAR should do more DPS than GNB. As for WAR, no its rotation isn't really fight dependent at all. The only thing that will really change is whether you do IC -> IR -> IC or IC -> IC -> IR. Sure, certain things may vary depending on specific fight downtimes (Hades EX being a great example for this, as every phase is relatively short so you often get to skip significant portions of the downtime sections of your rotation) but that does not necessarily change your rotation in and of itself. You get your Infuriate charges and IR on cooldown and once that is done simply do your basic combo while keeping Upheaval on CD, maintaining Storm's Eye, and using FC as necessary to avoid gauge overcap. WAR rotation is only "dynamic" in the sense that you will use those overcap-avoiding FC's at differing points in different fights, but that is not changing the rotation.

Edit: Just for clarity's sake on MCH and its "top damage output". MCH's ranking is as follows.

Alexander - 10th place out of all 10 DPS jobs (aka last)
Savage - 8th place
Extreme - 7th place

[millktea]

Paladin has absolutely zero mana "management". The only "management" of mana you have to do is to make sure you regenerate it all between the time that your magic combo ends and Req comes off CD, so if you count simply doing your rotation as normal mana "management" then sure, I guess?



Did you seriously just say that MCH is a "top damage output"? You uh, might wanna double check on your facts there friend, cuz that ain't it chief.

As for the rest; Gunbreaker is more complex than the other tanks in every sense of the word, and there is a lot more optimization on a per-fight basis that that job is capable of doing than the others. Just because you always use Gnashing, Blasting, etc on CD doesn't change the fact that GNB is objectively more complex than WAR, and regardless of what Yoshida said on it I personally don't believe that WAR should do more DPS than GNB. As for WAR, no its rotation isn't really fight dependent at all. The only thing that will really change is whether you do IC -> IR -> IC or IC -> IC -> IR. Sure, certain things may vary depending on specific fight downtimes (Hades EX being a great example for this, as every phase is relatively short so you often get to skip significant portions of the downtime sections of your rotation) but that does not necessarily change your rotation in and of itself. You get your Infuriate charges and IR on cooldown and once that is done simply do your basic combo while keeping Upheaval on CD, maintaining Storm's Eye, and using FC as necessary to avoid gauge overcap. WAR rotation is only "dynamic" in the sense that you will use those overcap-avoiding FC's at differing points in different fights, but that is not changing the rotation.

Edit: Just for clarity's sake on MCH and its "top damage output". MCH's ranking is as follows.

Alexander - 10th place out of all 10 DPS jobs (aka last)
Savage - 8th place
Extreme - 7th place

I didn't mean it as it being the best, but sure you got me there. Give me the source.

The point is the dps output is based on UTILITY. Yoshida stated the complete opposite of what you are saying. Complexity and difficulty does not determine its damage. So I don't care how complex you THINK gnb is, its toolkit is higher than war, so it should not be doing as much damage as it does, nor should it do more. It takes more skill to do damage on war than it does gnb. Your opinion doesn't matter. It's based on UTILITY. baseless opinion doesn't make the rules of balance, so I don't really care. Gauge management is still more complex as it can change (maybe not so much on single target full uptime) and be adjusted, gnbs two combos are not flex. You may think gnb should so more bc it's more "active" or has "more buttons" and is the highest now, but the fact is it isn't supposed to be the highest. War and dark are meant to be. Devs also said its based on skill (which its not), but Gnb requires the least skill out of the four. They designed it to basically do the skill for you. It automatically lines up with buffs. Thoughtless. There isn't much to adjust it, so there is no high reward (war used to have this. Now it doesn't really). I don't support hands held.

And no, gunbreaker is not complex. The gcds are 30s and 60s. NM is 60s. The times are even slightly adjusted to sync better. The rotation was legitimately designed for you to not do much thought. You hit it on cooldown. Yes, there is always going to be slight a adjustment, but no. It is NOT COMPLEX at all. You do a 3 hit combo. When GF is up, you hit that 3hit combo. You do one during burst, one out. As long as you have your uptime and gcd rolling, its ridiculously straightforward. It was designed to be that easy. More buttons isn't complex. Weaving isn't complex. Not at all. Its surprisingly simple. You do not really think playing this job. Stop trying to say its complex when its not. You don't even have to juggle a passive personal buff. Simplistic af job.

adjective
adjective: complex
/ˌkämˈpleks,kəmˈpleks,ˈkämˌpleks/
1.
consisting of many different and connected parts.
"a complex network of water channels".

It's not that different. GF is still a straightforward combo, you just weave continuation (similar to darks DA, and it does it for you kinda like pvp features), but its rotation isn't always changing. Warrior and dark fall under that more. Pld too. Gunbreaker is the LEAST complex of the four. It just has a lot of buttons. I'd say war is just above gnb, with pld and dark above those two.

This thread isn't about gunbreaker or you thinking it should be higher dps. Get out of here with that stuff. The fact that gnb took away focus and resources from warrior, who got neglected is already bad enough

[Lucy_Pyre]

-snip-

You speak as someone that has no idea how GNB works, and it's very obvious. Frankly, no, you're simply wrong. WAR should not be ahead of GNB in terms of DPS output, and the only way you could possibly argue that case is by being a WAR main who only cares about their job being top. See I'm different, I might main this job but I care about overall balance and not just the state of my own job, and WAR should be 2nd in terms of tank DPS, absolutely not first. On a side note, DRK, with how incredibly strong its personal mitigation currently is, deserves no more DPS than what it currently already does. At the most I could see if being in 3rd place for tank DPS, ahead of PLD but below WAR and GNB, but absolutely nothing higher than that. Its mitigation is so powerful that you cannot justify it being higher than the other tanks in terms of DPS, because when you're the best at everything that makes something blatantly overpowered.

One other thing, it has nothing to do with how complex I "think" GNB is, it has to do with the objective fact that I *know* GNB is more complex than WAR. Just because you're very obviously biased in WAR's favor doesn't change facts, and some people are actually capable of vying for overall balance between jobs even when the subject at hand involves their main job. Do I think WAR needs buffed and to do more damage? Absolutely I do. However, I do not think it needs to be the top dog of tank DPS because that was more or less GNB's entire schtick.

[Khimer]

See I'm different, I might main this job but I care about overall balance and not just the state of my own job, and WAR should be 2nd in terms of tank DPS, absolutely not first.

Oh god.

One other thing, it has nothing to do with how complex I "think" GNB is, it has to do with the objective fact that I *know* GNB is more complex than WAR. Just because you're very obviously biased in WAR's favor doesn't change facts, and some people are actually capable of vying for overall balance between jobs even when the subject at hand involves their main job. Do I think WAR needs buffed and to do more damage? Absolutely I do. However, I do not think it needs to be the top dog of tank DPS because that was more or less GNB's entire schtick.

It's PRETTY obvious that you don't know what you are talking about, but you are trying really hard to look like you do. As much as we complain that warrior is braindead easy(which is true) we can't deny that it is also one of the complex tanks when in comes to optimization as in fights you have to put a lot more thought than gnb. Like there might be a minor downtime and you'll have to think whether you have enough time to do another SP or you'll need to reapply SE. Or you constantly need to land certain attacks in buff windows, if that ninja is late on trick you have to adjust, if you had to use onslaught cause otherwise you would've lost gcd, you have to adjust your gauge management. All that while also being careful not to overcap. And that's why its more complex, you have to think and adjust and not blindly follow your rotation. It still doesn't make warrior any more interesting cause its rotation is piss easy and extremely boring. When all of the job's complexity comes not from its rotation but from outside factors like fights and other players it's a pretty bad design.
While gnb is straight forward: JUST PRESS EVERYTHING ON COOLDOWN. Yeah sometimes you need to change your opener and that means your rotation changes, but you STILL PRESS EVERYTHING ON COOLDOWN. But you know what? Its still more fun than WAR, cause its rotation is engaging, double weaving is engaging, high apm is engaging, having big numbers is engaging.

BUT gnb numbers should stay high as compared to other tanks their party support is not that great. OH WAIT warriors have the worst OT support skill, that sick 10% + health restored, which has any use ONLY IF you time it right, while you also sacrifice raw intuition that could've been used to power up another underwhelming(compared to other tanks) support ability "Shake it off". Unlike other tanks' abilities that provide mitigation for 15 secs, SIO can just pop and you're left with nothing for continuous raidwides. AND despite all that WAR is close to last in dps. So i heard you are all about that balance, and judging by warrior's clearly inferior party support it should absolutely be top dps tank. You wouldn't be against that, would you?

[millktea]

Static jobs like gunbreaker aren't more complex than that. It's close to HW pld with some ogcds.

Yoshida exclusively stated that a jobs difficulty does not determine its dps output. Damage output is balanced based on UTILITY, not COMPLEXITY, so no, gunbreaker shouldn't be outdoing warrior, and paladin absolutely shouldn't be outdpsing war either. That's how this game works. Both still have more than war.

Gunbreaker, you spam everything on cooldown. Wars rotation is purely based on the fight so its always changing, the party comp, and how much uptime/downtime, and the speed of the kill. Gunbreaker is static.

Ninja is way more complex than monk or bard, and last I checked, its not top. Mch is easy af now, and it's a top damage output. Gunbreaker is very straightforward. Warrior is too, but not nearly as much as gnb, there's not much derailment from that train. the weaving isn't complex nor is it difficult. You do you one combo, you get a cartridge. You spend it. When NM is up, you hit that combo (no change, its just another combo. You execute it the same). Its the same thing. You just hit some ogcds around it (war does too). Its base is no different than warrior. If anything, its easier. Gauge management is harder than just doing one combo = one big hit. In fact, keeping eye up, managing infuriate charges/IC is harder than what you're describing. For example, say leviathan jumps, a war has to make sure to reapply eye at the last second to make sure it lasts a full downtime session, as well as not overcap on gauge when coming back to the reapplication and then understand that buffs are coming back up, and you need to IR during this point, so you better not be capped on infuriate charges nor waste an IC. Another example is knowing if popping infuriate even just for gauge is worth losing the IC based on the duration of downtime. Gnb? Just make sure you have at least ONE CARTRIDGE. Warrior requires more quick thinking and proactive play than gunbreaker. War has to think more about when to land IC under a buff or using nascent, gnbs rotation naturally lines up with every buff, no thinking required. Healing? Just have uptime and click the Aurora button. So by that alone, war should be higher, not gnb. And if you think continuation makes it more difficult, that's funny, because tbh, its just dark arts. And I wouldn't consider continuation to be a part of its base level. You just weave it between your gcds. A lot of buttons doesn't make it more complex.

You can do your timings correctly, and still get screwed over (and yes, not make the mistakes you stated). The window to execute it is very tight and if its not executed, it's severely more punishing than any other tank. That's the point. The window of opportunity is too tight. Gunbreaker is very simple. Its just new and unfamiliar with a lot of buttons.

[Nedkel]

War rotation is not set in stone. Its dependent very much so on the fight and comp. As long as you are doing plds standard rotation, there is hardly any mp management. It isn't dark knight. You don't really need to think as much as you are claiming.

There is still more thinking involved than playing a war.
Sorry but things you wrote up there are also applies to paladin gameplay optimisation. Managing gauge is not rocket science, optimising 2 damage windows, mp and dot usage during the fof is way more involving than burning out infuriate stack, turning on dmg buff and pressing the same button 5 times in a row. You dont use onslaught outside ir window, you use upheaval maybe once between them, all you do is just 1 2 3 and then reapply the buff. With pld it is easier to screw over rotation with ever changing environment than it is possible with war, your damage windows duration is 37 seconds long and because of it far more probable to miss something and dealign rotation, unless pld is fighting a dummy which does nothing.
PLD may be only easier for those who have advanced muscle memory allowing them to not look at the hotbar at all and know all the fight from tip to toe. Then sure, yes you are right in this case however it does not apply to roughly 90% of players.

tbh, paladin isn't popular due to the reasons you said, that is only somewhat true after all the tanks got disemboweled. Its popular more so due its aesthetic. Pld also took things from the other tanks. People really like swords and sword and shield over a great axe. Most don't find greataxes cool. Its also flashier and more gaudy (lesser than dark, but still there). War is very grounded and is animations are relatively mediocre. They don't try with warrior. Most armor and weapons? Plds tend to be better than war. Glamour is everything. I actually find plds animations to be pretty boring. HW pld was very boring and it was TERRIBLE, and yet, it was the most played tank, I'm sure. It is true that many warriors are complaining about their lack in buttons, which is an all time low right now

I am looking at hard numbers for hw right now, in almost all the content pld was the least played tank by a huge margin and warrior was always #1 so your theory does not keep up with actual facts sorry.

[Nedkel]

Reading this thread made me wanting to play more pld

[Khimer]

Reading this thread made me wanting to play more pld

The only correct decision at this point.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Does job "complexity" even matter? To what extent? Can you even measure or define it, consistently?

[Khimer]

Does job "complexity" even matter? To what extent? Can you even measure or define it, consistently?

That's the big debate. The approach i was going with, was to compare 2 tank jobs: gnb and war. And define which one has to do extra to perform optimally, pay extra attention and stuff like that. So i came to the conclusion that warrior is more complex when it comes to optimizing in a fight than gnb, cause while doing its extremely easy rotation warrior also has to keep an eye on damage buff and job gauge. While gnb only needs to stick to its rotation and press things on cooldown. Apparently they don't agree with it, and i've yet to hear anything cohesive about it.