nin and dnc buffs when?

[Shhikasan]

during raid patch?
cause our friendly information measuring tool tells me that these two classes need some love.

Dnc feels alright but dmg tampers off and sometimes feels kinda of sluggish with flourish and all those attacks and feel saber dance needs to be off gcd basically serves the same purpose as a mch Ricochet but fights with other cds of course it should be priority.

also before SUPPORT class other then BLM and sam Every class throws out a large amount or equal supporting buffs most of dnc is literally limited to another dps which should be a sam or blm. in a sense it should be a mix of being a ranged version of dragoon now im not asking for top dmg im just asking for not terrible dmg

[Kaozurei]

Usually, balance patches come out around raid patch. Sometimes a bit after the launch of normal mode, others after the launch of savage. I agree both NIN and DNC need some buffs though, I'm really hoping to see some changes, preferably sooner rather than later.

[Drayos]

The other support classes actually do not. Every class took utility nerfs to make room for dancer.

Bards utility has gone down dramatically. And is now far less raid dps wise then dancer or ninja.

Machinist is on stormblood monk levels of support. With just 1 survivability buff. And no other support.

Dragoon no longer has piercing debuff (although it’s personal dps is too strong for its raid dps, I’m sure it will be nerfed tho in some reguards)

I have no idea about RDM not that they contributed to farm runs, so they maybe only used for progression again I don’t know.

Dancer and ninja are the two highest raid dps classes therefore their raid dps is lower. This is so it doesn’t become more effective to stack these classes instead of having a variety of classes present.

Dragoon I can understand

But how u believe machinist and bard offers the same raid dps gains as dancer or ninja is beyond me u guys are litteral 10% raid wide damage increases.

The entire raids burst phases revolve around you. Your the most important dps there. There’s always a cost there

[HyoMinPark]

during raid patch?
cause our friendly information measuring tool tells me that these two classes need some love.

Dnc feels alright but dmg tampers off and sometimes feels kinda of sluggish with flourish and all those attacks and feel saber dance needs to be off gcd basically serves the same purpose as a mch Ricochet but fights with other cds of course it should be priority.

also before SUPPORT class other then BLM and sam Every class throws out a large amount or equal supporting buffs most of dnc is literally limited to another dps which should be a sam or blm. in a sense it should be a mix of being a ranged version of dragoon now im not asking for top dmg im just asking for not terrible dmg

As far as I’m aware, we do not yet know what the raid DPS of NIN and DNC are. The only numbers I have seen are numbers from Titania EX’s SSS dummy, which are not an adequate measure of anything other than what a job can do on a striking dummy, because it looks only at personal damage—and this is not adequate for any job that brings party buffs, since you also want to consider rDPS when you look at those jobs.

It’s not all about personal DPS when it comes to balancing (especially with buff jobs); you need to consider raid DPS with regards to these jobs as well. Lower personal damage (such as NIN or DNC) can be easily made up for with high raid contribution. It’s the reason why NIN has been meta since its inception—despite having some of the lowest personal damage, Trick Attack has been one of the strongest raid buffs. In Alphascape, it could give up to 1,000 rDPS to a good group, for example.


DNC in particular should not be judged on dummy parses because these SSS numbers I have seen give no benefit to the DNC when it comes to Esprit generation. Given how Esprit works, striking dummy targets are the worst way to judge the job’s damage—there is no way for DNC to get the full benefits from Esprit and Saber Dance because we cannot Closed Position a dance partner (so no Esprit generation there for the entire duration of the dummy parse) AND it also does not consider the Esprit buff Technical Finish gives to party members—so that’s 20 seconds of Esprit on 7 other people every 120 seconds that is also not being considered. This is all talk about the personal damage gains to DNC. It’s not even considering the buffs of Standard Finish and Technical Finish—which would also need to be taken into consideration for them.

BRD was in a similar spot in SB—despite the SSS dummies not being tuned with the +5% piercing in mind, BRD relied so heavily on critical hit buffs that that alone impacted dummy parses. Take away Litany and Chain Strategem, and BRD’s damage dropped because of reduced proc rates (which meant reduced damage). Conversely, give them Litany and Chain, and their damage skyrocketed because of more procs (and more damage as a result). Especially with the more critical hit they could stack on their gear and melds. With regards to rDPS gains, BRD was bringing quite a bit of rDPS from its passive crit, Foe’s, and Battle Voice—usually netting ~300 rDPS a piece in Alphascape, if not more. This contribution to the raid made up for its lower personal damage compared to other jobs.



I’d say we really need more data on the total raid contribution of the jobs before we can really make any sort of judgment regarding buffing them. Because it’s not all about personal damage when it comes to jobs like NIN and DNC.

[Shhikasan]

The other support classes actually do not. Every class took utility nerfs to make room for dancer.

Bards utility has gone down dramatically. And is now far less raid dps wise then dancer or ninja.

Machinist is on stormblood monk levels of support. With just 1 survivability buff. And no other support.

Dragoon no longer has piercing debuff (although it’s personal dps is too strong for its raid dps, I’m sure it will be nerfed tho in some reguards)

I have no idea about RDM not that they contributed to farm runs, so they maybe only used for progression again I don’t know.

Dancer and ninja are the two highest raid dps classes therefore their raid dps is lower. This is so it doesn’t become more effective to stack these classes instead of having a variety of classes present.

Dragoon I can understand

But how u believe machinist and bard offers the same raid dps gains as dancer or ninja is beyond me u guys are litteral 10% raid wide damage increases.

The entire raids burst phases revolve around you. Your the most important dps there. There’s always a cost there

dnc literally only effects one other player second person i've seen say raid wide dmg increase.
I LOVE HOW WE ARE HAVING THE SAME TALKING POINTS EVERY TIME A CLASS that does shit dmg HEY YOUR SUPPORT ACCEPT YOUR SHIT CLASS. heavensward MCH outside a small niche use they would of never been brought into raids only till later updates did they hold top dps which at this point was last few major updates of the heavensward. MCH in stormblood literally where class was dropped by even the best of players cause it literally brought nothing to a raid even a dmg boost against a boss for 25 seconds Physical only.

IM NOT ASKING FOR SAM OR BLM dmg just asking some middle ground with good players being reward not Good players being rewarded hey least your helping someone else do better easily.

and i don't know what is wrong with nin but they literally do like less dmg on avg then tanks i've seen in ex runs more so if they have to move a lot least with dnc they can always dmg nin really got shafted.

[loreleidiangelo]

Technical Step affects the whole party, not just your Closed Position partner.

[JohnSeal]

I will CERTAINLY NOT buff the NIN, it’s already a great class, potency increased now on ShB and your get a “kage bunshin no jutsu”. NIN is the most meta.
The dancer tho needs a buff, they can’t buff the weaponskills simply because they will be then FORCED to buff both dances or wouldn’t be worth to dance anymore. Dancer wont dance lol. They need a 50 pot for FD1 and 100 for FD3 and will be ok

[Maero]

My best runs thus far (just dungeons mind you) has been with a drg.
Drg+ Dancer seem to work out well, we melted stuff

[Drayos]

dnc literally only effects one other player second person i've seen say raid wide dmg increase.
I LOVE HOW WE ARE HAVING THE SAME TALKING POINTS EVERY TIME A CLASS that does shit dmg HEY YOUR SUPPORT ACCEPT YOUR SHIT CLASS. heavensward MCH outside a small niche use they would of never been brought into raids only till later updates did they hold top dps which at this point was last few major updates of the heavensward. MCH in stormblood literally where class was dropped by even the best of players cause it literally brought nothing to a raid even a dmg boost against a boss for 25 seconds Physical only.

IM NOT ASKING FOR SAM OR BLM dmg just asking some middle ground with good players being reward not Good players being rewarded hey least your helping someone else do better easily.

and i don't know what is wrong with nin but they literally do like less dmg on avg then tanks i've seen in ex runs more so if they have to move a lot least with dnc they can always dmg nin really got shafted.

right to the first point EXAMPLE

If u do 10,000 DPS And Able to provide a Additional 2500 DPS to a BLM in group, while a Monk can only obtain 11,000 DPS without Any offensive Utility, you will bench that Monk. u dont seem to reliese the games balanced on your RAID DPS, not ur Personal DPS.. your measured by how much DPS you bring to a Raid through ur Kit, Personal DPS numbers Do not matter in FFXIV like they do in other games such as WoW, hence why they frowned on by the company.

2) my point was against you saying classes are Equal in utility.

how can you say a Machinist with nothing but a 10% Damage reduction, which cannot stack with your own (which means U have litterally the same buff) Equal?, Machinist has 0 Unique utility, It offers Nothing that a other class can do, the fact you feel ur personal DPS should be on par, Calls to me that you want to BENCH classes with your own.

you Dont seem to understand, that If u provide high personal DPS and one of the highest Raid DPS, u will replace 90% of the DPS Classes in this game. because u'll create a Meta where u should stack 2 Dancers and 2 BLMS. which FFXIV heavily trys to Not let happen.

FFXIV is balanced on 8 man Content, not 4 man, Which means the MORE damage u Add Raid Wide the less DPS you will personally do, its how the games Entirely Balanced Utility v Damage. U seem to have no actually looked anything up, because ALOT of Support was gutted in SHB Release, ontop of this bards Utility was heavily nerfed to make room for Dancers Utility.

your class was RELEASED under "SYNERGY" its Reported to be SEs attempt at a Real Support Job, They made it CLEAR from Fanfest they dont intend the Dancer to be a high DPSer but a jack of All Trades, holding Defensive Utility, Offensive Utility, Off-Heals and DPS. Its basically the answer to a RDM who wants to try ranged physical DPS. stop Complaning that Support DPS have Lower DPS then pure, because its Utility v Personal is what they balance around the concept is

Every DPS Should add the SAME DPS Raid wide. Which means the More buffs u give to another the Less DPS u can do, this is to round u out to for example

Dancer, 9.5k Personal DPS. 3k Raid DPS = 12,500 Raid DPS

bard 10k Personal. 2.5k Raid DPS = 12,500

Monk 12,500 Personal DPS. 0 Raid DPS = 12,500

Machinist 12,500 Personal DPS. 0 Raid DPS = 12,500.

That is the type of balancing that happens in FFXIV, thats how it Supports the idea of both Pure DPS and Support DPS being required in a Raid. its not people saying "accept your shit class" its People who understand that you'd actually Cause other jobs to be Benched with your Demands, you cant just say "i wanna be Mid Pack DPS".. because u'll become Top Pack raid DPS if that was to happen.. which would then become problematic as u'd Bench Pure DPS.

hence why Machinists lost ALL Their utility when reworked, because they took DPS buffs which Ment SE nerfed their Utility. Same with bard, it took Utility nerfs and got buffed DPS Wise.

Dancer is Mid Pack Raid DPS, if not Above Average Raid DPS. your personal Numbers Dont = ur place on a DPS List. Because your responsible for a few number of the Other DPS's DPS Total which is what u've brought. you have to take how much DPS you gave the other DPS then Add it to ur Personal DPS to find your Raid DPS.

So if u've given a BLM 2000 DPS, u add it to ur personal DPS level if your below a ninjas DPS then yeah you need buffing as Ninjas Should have a higher Raid DPS then Dancer atleast by glances. but you shouldnt be Equalling a Class which has less Raid DPS then you. because it can not Facilitate a Purpose if ur managing this.

they did this in SB, which SAM did less DPS then a Monk, It made Monk Meta because of this happening. All ur causing is.

U get Buffed by 2k DPS.

Machinist gets buffed by 3k DPS.

BLM is Buffed by 5k

so ur buffed another 1k

So they then buff everything above you again. because Personal DPS isnt balancable in a game where Some Jobs fit into Raids better then others.

your balanced on RDPS, which is what everyone talks about, Personal DPS is Never talked about, this isnt WoW it aint balanced like WoW, and yes im pressuming u are from WoW because I had the same mentality walking into this game and very quickly learnt a Class can be 5k Behind in Personal DPS yet bench the Class for himself because of the utility he Holds.

Ninjas were the Worst DPS in the game during SB yet the most demanded Job in the game. If that doesnt tell you enough about FFXIV Balancing Systems. i dont know what will realistically.. but calling "BUFF ME" based on a Personal DPS Score wont go far in FFXIV Community nor SEs team, because Personal DPS Meters are Banned, ur never ment to know your Numbers. So outing urself by saying this is making u liable to ban if anything. and Mentioning Dummy parses Proves even less because ur not taking account of Melee v Ranged Uptime on boss monsters.

people arent saying your a Suipport "deal with ur shit class" because Support classes are actually the strongest in Meta.

look at SB, Bards, Ninjas, Dragoons all in high demand Yet all Low Personal DPS. BLM and SAM being Super high DPS yet Denied from Raids, We Dont give a hell about Personal DPS, most raids look for what will give their Raid the most DPS not particularly your own, hence why its deemed easier to get into Raiding with a Support class then a Pure DPS, because u dont have to be as Skilled in a group to provide use to a Raid.

[HyoMinPark]

dnc literally only effects one other player

This is incorrect. Standard Finish affects one other player for the entirety of an encounter. Technical Finish affects your entire party—so 3 people in 4-mans and 7 people in 8-mans. Both buffs give +5% for the correct number of steps, so this raid damage gain needs to be factored into DNC’s overall damage. Balancing utility jobs is not solely done around their personal DPS but also their raid DPS.

I LOVE HOW WE ARE HAVING THE SAME TALKING POINTS EVERY TIME A CLASS that does [redacted] dmg HEY YOUR SUPPORT ACCEPT YOUR [redacted] CLASS.

We do not know what DNC’s damage is currently. The only numbers that have been circulating are simulations and some SSS numbers from Titania EX’s striking dummy. I explained above why the latter is not an accurate representation of the overall damage a support/utility job does.

Theorycrafters are currently trying to figure all of this stuff out. We’ll probably have rough estimates up until the release of Eden Savage, and then we’ll start getting more solid numbers from the groups that run it and do all the number crunching. Until then, all you really have to go on is feelycrafting—and that’s not adequate.

heavensward MCH outside a small niche use they would of never been brought into raids only till later updates did they hold top dps which at this point was last few major updates of the heavensward. MCH in stormblood literally where class was dropped by even the best of players cause it literally brought nothing to a raid even a dmg boost against a boss for 25 seconds Physical only.

HW MCH was actually better than BRD on release. It was heavily favored in physical DPS comps thanks to Hypercharge, while BRD was favored in comps that had casters thanks to Foe Requiem. The inevitable buff wars that ensued in attempts to balance the two jobs against one another broke the jobs to the point where they were dealing the highest personal damage of ALL DPS jobs.

SB MCH was still meta when one was going for parse runs. However, players didn’t play it
NOT due to its lack of or want for utility. They didn’t play it due to terrible design and terrible gameplay. Go to any Stormblood MCH thread on here or on Reddit, and you’ll see the same theme in all of them: the job was horrendous to play—clunky at higher latencies and skill speeds; players that didn’t have the best ping in the world were punished due to the nature of their Wildfire window and oGCDs like Rapid Fire.

IM NOT ASKING FOR SAM OR BLM dmg just asking some middle ground with good players being reward not Good players being rewarded hey least your helping someone else do better easily.

If DNC and NIN have decent raid contributions, they will be fine. NIN was one of the lowest in personal damage in SB—but it completely annihilated in raid contribution with Trick Attack alone. 1,000 rDPS in a single skill—I think the only other single raid buff that could compete with that was Balance, and only with RNG being heavily on the side of the AST and allowing for enough AOE Balances to meet that number. Add that to their personal damage, and that’s the overall rDPS they were doing. Low damage or not on their own, they were—and have always been—highly valued in groups that seek to optimize because of what they bring.

and i don't know what is wrong with nin but they literally do like less dmg on avg then tanks i've seen in ex runs more so if they have to move a lot least with dnc they can always dmg nin really got shafted.

What sort of data do you have backing this up? Do you have repeated logs of testing? Have you done extensive testing? Are you testing decent NINs, or are you just looking at NINs that are average at best and bad at worse? What does your evidence look like to back this up? Do you have any at all?

I'd Argue Dancers do need something stable though, entire kit working off 50% Chance prolly does cause some low parses down to bad luck, which will always feel negative.

It will depend. DNC could be fine even with the RNG aspect. After all, SB BRD was heavily RNG based for bursts, but they never wanted for their spot in the meta.