Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

[Dyvid]

Snip

Hang on, Hang on. Are we discussion SMN overall DPS or just it's AoE? As I said earlier, dungeon run aren't really the measure stick for job performance. By looking at the numbers, it's clear to me Egi's and their abilities need a buff all around; Ifrit and Garuda. The Enkindle is laughable and ranks the lowest on the DPS scale compared to what it is suppose to be. EA1 and EA2 aren't fair much better, they need to be doubled or even tripled to make an impactful contribution. This is what sticks out to me anyway.

[CecMiller]

Hang on, Hang on. Are we discussion SMN overall DPS or just it's AoE? As I said earlier, dungeon run aren't really the measure stick for job performance. By looking at the numbers, it's clear to me Egi's and their abilities need a buff all around; Ifrit and Garuda. The Enkindle is laughable and ranks the lowest on the DPS scale compared to what it is suppose to be. EA1 and EA2 aren't fair much better, they need to be doubled or even tripled to make an impactful contribution. This is what sticks out to me anyway.

The changes to the rotation cycle is impacting both perfomances. In commenting on our contribution for AOE dps and the reasons for it, we can see those same reasons as to why we lack in the single target department. Further, my post was in response to your comment about our AOE relative to other jobs. I wanted to clarify further the changes that had occured to cause this extremely large drop. If you've been reading since earlier, I've already commented on our pitfalls in titania EX and I am no slouch when it comes to SMN both in 4.0 and 5.0 so i can readily discern the areas it is weak when we compare it to how the cycle was managed in 4.0:

New EX Primals: https://imgur.com/a/hbCXbD1

I am well aware of what is the measuring stick for job performance, but that doesn't mean its not worth highlighting regardless. Losing so much AOE damage when you consider everything we have to do to pull it off is not encouraging and is another talking point as we need to be buffed with regards to single target and AOE.

It doesn't really matter what they buff as you could simply buff single target damage on Ruin 3 and Ruin 2 potency and the single target numbers go up regardless. You can give general potency adjustments to whatever you feel like giving it too - whether its making Egi Assaults or Enkindle impactful, buffing fester damage or even our GCD/Dot damage. Buffing Egi assaults would make them feel better but the same change could be achieved via buffing the base GCD potency - that is my point. In the bigger picture, its the denial of aetherflow without a target and being in combat and the fact that our rotation is paused the minute DWT/FBT are active that is causing us to lose a lot of our dps and feel worse than any egi assaults or enkindle currently does though I do agree that they should be more impactful then their current incarnation.

The thing that sticks out to me, massively, is being denied in our ability to continue or cycle anytime there is downtime or being unable to refresh aetherflow without a target. It was a big optimizing feature of 4.0 SMN, knowing when to rush and hold aetherflow stacks and trances/demin summons. Fix this and our dps will shoot up in all areas of content.

My overall point for this thread was to point out areas in which SMN was lacking or felt bad. I leave the actual numbers game to Square Enix. However, if you are interested in looking at numbers, I point you into the direction of my old thread where I discussed some such changes to Enkindle and other abilities:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5016801

[Corosar]

Where is my Ruin IV?

I've tried spamming Egi Assaut I and II with all of my body and soul, yet it rarely activates. Also, does pet auto still trigger Ruin IV?

i noticed that if you use Topaz/Titan. Egi assault 1 will never give you Ruin 4. You have to rely on Egi assault 2. I guess i can state that is a problem. But i admit that Egi assault 2 always seems to give Ruin 4 procs with titan/topaz. I am not sure how its like with emerald/Garuda or Ruby/Ifrit But even if Topaz does not hit anything with EA2 You still seem to be guaranteed the ruin 4. I am happy losing Ruin 4 procs on EA1 with topaz because of this. But it seems it only goes off if you deal damage with the other summons. Kinda annoying

[Taranok]

Why does Summoner have to have issues right out the gate with every expansion?

It’s disheartening that the developers can’t seem to ever get it right, or close enough the first time without revisions. I thought for sure that since they labored enough thought into a partial reworking for SMN that we’d be fine, but it’s looking quite contrary.

It's simple. They don't 100% know what they want to do with summoners (SB was the wake-up call for them on overall direction), they don't know which old mechanics they want to rip out, they don't know how new mechanics will interact with old mechanics, and so it fundamentally arrives with issues because of it.

Pair this with the dev team testing in a vacuum most likely with people who are probably closer to average than top tier on the skill level, and they'll start to let problems they might notice slide thinking the playerbase will handle the problems just fine instead of it being a core issue of the class, or <insert speculative argument here>.

These types of problems are not uncommon or unheard of, especially when you do a revision of the class. The devs aren't going to be perfect and they genuinely are trying to make the class better, they just got overzealous and missed the mark because the class keeps getting revised.

[CecMiller]

i noticed that if you use Topaz/Titan. Egi assault 1 will never give you Ruin 4. You have to rely on Egi assault 2. I guess i can state that is a problem. But i admit that Egi assault 2 always seems to give Ruin 4 procs with titan/topaz. I am not sure how its like with emerald/Garuda or Ruby/Ifrit But even if Topaz does not hit anything with EA2 You still seem to be guaranteed the ruin 4. I am happy losing Ruin 4 procs on EA1 with topaz because of this. But it seems it only goes off if you deal damage with the other summons. Kinda annoying

Yeah this appears to be the case - however I will note that ifrit can still "flaming crush" and also generates you an R4 proc even if flaming crush hits nothing aka the target dies before ifrit executed it.

*snip*
These types of problems are not uncommon or unheard of, especially when you do a revision of the class. The devs aren't going to be perfect and they genuinely are trying to make the class better, they just got overzealous and missed the mark because the class keeps getting revised.

I also think their heart is in the right place and they try to do what is best, but somehow things escape them or their understanding of how great abilities like the old Aetherflow were, stress point or not. It enabled player skill to be expressed whilst making the rotational tools that are a part of it, flexible and it allowed the cycle to continue flowing even during downtime where you could speed it up. It was a great system and I hope they realise this!

Its clear they wanted to improve SMN, but they ended up missing the mark! To quote Yoshida again:

Q: Aetherflow was also separated from the Dreadwyrm Trance/Summon Bahamut cycle.

Yoshida: Regaining Aetherflow was also a stress point, and now we're focusing on the actual act of summoning. Up until now, there was a bit of downtime after summoning Bahamut, so now you can continue on with summoning Firebird, doing a large summon whenever the recast time rolls around. This mechanical change was simply a result of addressing a major cause of stress

The current system has undeniably been comprimised in many ways flexibility being just one aspect. Their solution for Aetherflow no longer being a stress point was to make DWT the exact same thing whilst somehow still making Aetherflow/Energy Drain even more stressful even after it has become detached from the cycle.

If they wanted to reduce the wait time before pulls in raids, the solution was simply to give Summoners full stacks after every wipe similar to how "charged" actions retain full stacks after every wipe. I'm disappointed that they have not done this, but even if you started at 0 stacks, the system with the old Aetherflow dictating the our cycle was far better.

I hope they're able to go back to the drawing board and see where they made erred with the design of the new Summoner. The new "busy work" or Egi Assault OGCDs combined with the 30s Aetherflow has been highly polarizing. I myself definately prefer having 4 stacks every 60s as opposed to 2 stacks every 30 as it allowed us far more downtime power. The Egi Assault OGCDs I don't mind as much but I'm well aware others dislike them. I wish they were more potent and more meaningful even if they had a longer cooldown to compensate.

The only thing we can do really is discuss and hopefully our voices are heard and hope for the best. I trust the team to fix our problems!

[Angry_Evil]

I want them to make bahamut more like it was in SB - basically weaving to get more WV etc. but give it unique skills like phoenix have. Then we'll have 3 mechanics DWT>DB>FBT with unique things in each. All this new r4 measuring is just meh...

[CecMiller]

I want them to make bahamut more like it was in SB - basically weaving to get more WV etc. but give it unique skills like phoenix have. Then we'll have 3 mechanics DWT>DB>FBT with unique things in each. All this new r4 measuring is just meh...

I thought about this too!

How cool would it be if Bahamut, instead of wyrmwaves, used Flare Breath from Ucob:

https://youtu.be/LupAOwPA7yA?t=1554

Or Flatten for single target. I'm sad they removed the ogcd interaction but I would have loved some new abilities for bahamut to compensate.

[Dyvid]

Snip

So I mention AoE specifically because you specifically made it a point to post FFLog data related to that. Think about what is going on right now on SE's side. The mods are pouring over the thread right now up channeling our discussions. What we don't want is some dumb change like, "Oh they think AoE is weak, lets just buff outburst and everything will be okay." I know and you know this isn't going to fix any of the problems. My suggest to you would be compile your thoughts, decide on specific problems you are seeing, then give specific ideas on how to fix them.

As for Aetherflow, Summoner isn't the only job that got hit with this pre-pull nerf. I've been trying MCH out and learned you can't charge their battery gauge or heat gauge unless in combat. Though I can't confirm due to lack of experience but I can assume a lot of the jobs were hit with this but SCH are talking about it too as well as AST. Knowing this is a hard stance by SE, what would you suggest as a work around for AF? I've mentioned before about granting a full 4 stack with ED every 60s. Another option would give ED/ES a build up of two stacked charges. As for Trances, I can see a ladder that builds up to Demi-Phoenix; DWT changes to DWT+Bahamut that changes to FBT+Phoenix. Or another option would be DWT unlocks FBT+Phoenix and Bahamut is still separate letting you call him whenever you need. It gives you more freedom but would be a less clear rotation.

[CecMiller]

So I mention AoE specifically because you specifically made it a point to post FFLog data related to that. Think about what is going on right now on SE's side. The mods are pouring over the thread right now up channeling our discussions. What we don't want is some dumb change like, "Oh they think AoE is weak, lets just buff outburst and everything will be okay." I know and you know this isn't going to fix any of the problems.

You are mistaken in thinking that by mentioning simply AOE and the stats for AOE that they would only consider the AOE capabilities of our class when both the JP side and English side have been more than vocal about what our problems are. Furthermore, I am sure they are not waiting for us to post our stats when they can have a good look at what things are like from their end. The stats I posted were more for the other players of this job and others ffxiv players to understand that SMN isn't in the best place even outside of discussing mechanical changes which requires some knowledge about the job itself.

Thee main focus of the entire thread has been to discuss the mechanics that are hindering our job and, in so doing, discuss how we can fix these issues which impacts both single target and AOE. Further, I already posted our single target data in the comment discussing AOE proceeding that post. Not sure if you saw. If the conclusion they draw from reading my opening post and the proceeding comments is to buff outburst - that is entirely on their own inpetitude in understanding the job. This is why I, in addition to discussing the problems of single target, discuss the problems with AOE aswell as it is always worth highlighting.

Thankyou for your suggestion to compile my thoughts and decide on specific problems I'm seeing and give specific ideas on how to fix them. I think you'll find my opening post does exactly that.

As for Aetherflow, Summoner isn't the only job that got hit with this pre-pull nerf. I've been trying MCH out and learned you can't charge their battery gauge or heat gauge unless in combat. Though I can't confirm due to lack of experience but I can assume a lot of the jobs were hit with this but SCH are talking about it too as well as AST. Knowing this is a hard stance by SE, what would you suggest as a work around for AF?

My main solution was already given, but I will quote it again. This can be modified and expanded on pretty easily. The problem stems from the "must be in combat tag" associated with aetherflow and so dungeons will naturally feel worse unless they give us charges to go along with it.

Alternatively (assuming Aetherflow is back to its original state/60s), simply pressing the button could make the Trances "Active" instead of having to spend the stacks to activate DWT etc


Example:

1. Aetherflow (on use aka just to gain the stacks) gives us access to DWT aka button lights up and can be used whenever.(Can spend stacks inside).
Further, the next Aetherflow becomes "Enhanced" after DWT ends for its next use. This means we can use DWT however we want for the next 60s.
2. DWT gives us access to Bahamut as before.
3. Enhanced Aetherflow (on use aka just to gain the stacks) gives us access to FBT aka button lights up and can be used whenever. (You can spend stacks inside FBT).
Note: Enhanced AF cannot be used until you have used DWT as state prior. This avoids conflicting situations.
4. Aetherflow returns to normal for next use aka it would grant DWT again on refresh after FBT has ended.

We can be funny and call normal "Aetherflow" Energy Drain and "Enhanced Aetherflow" Energy Siphon. In effect, ending DWT upgrades Energy Drain to Energy Siphon whilst FBT ending changes Energy Siphon to Energy Drain. Also, I'd hope we can use both Energy Drain/Energy Siphon without a target in combat and preferablly between trash pulls in a dungeon if at all possible.

This avoids the aetherflow lockout in trances as was the case in 4.0+. You could also use the "enhanced" Aetherflow stacks inside bahamut as all it does is change DWT icon to FBT icon on use. Just be aware that the enkindles share times between the summons. I see no downside to this.

While true a few jobs did get hit in that department, several other jobs still require some pre-pull setup and, as I recall, the whole goal was to reduce the wait time for parties who raided and had a SMN/SCH party member. There is always going to be a pre-pull wait time regardless due to some jobs having pre-pull buffs they need to take care of. They could always add "cannot be used outside of combat" to all of these abilities and yet they all got a pass. See BLM, RDM, DNC as some examples if they want to play optimally (Sharpcast, Acceleration, Dances). Having this with SMN was no different besides a longer wait.

There is no way to know this is a "hard stance" by SE as you claim it to be. However, if there was to be one, the solution would be just to start with 0 stacks as before and use the system in my opening post that I have just quoted. Aetherflow would simply be a first weave - thats about the only change from a raiding stand point.

However, this system doesn't work as nicely in dungeons where there is no target as we cannot refresh Aether and that might be fine. Previously in stormblood, we could go through a dungeon and have 3 stacks and be able to use another 3 stacks when AF was back in quick succession if we rushed DWT for a grand total of 6 stacks used in a short time frame. As a result, I would possibly give Aetherflow 2 Charges to bring this back to dungeons, and if needed, give it a short re-cast timer so that it cannot be re-used in quick succession in the opener in a raid setting. If this seems too radical of a change, then they could do something similar to what they have done with the current DWT/FBT. DWT cannot be used outside of combat, but FBT can. If Energy Drain generates DWT and is not able to be used outside of combat, let Energy Siphon (the upgrade to energy drain as suggested in my opening post) which could now make FBT active on use be able to be used outside of combat. Another suggestion could be to basically have the polygot system for stacks. Just create button to maintain the Aetherflow time that would keep ticking to give us stacks. However this would be a big rework when a solution is more obviously generated by looking at 4.0 SMN and the suggestions already given.

[Taranok]

The solution really is as simple as deleting Energy Drain and Energy Siphon, and redistributing their damage into other abilities. It will fully remove aetherflow as a stress mechanic and settle the class at a nice, comfortable oGCD level where it's neither too busy or too lazy.

And I disagree with Demi-Primals benefitting from oGCDs. It's bad enough they benefit from GCDs considering you can screw yourself out of a hit by not ending DB on ruin 2/ruin 4, but the old SB system of using Aetherflow during DB was unintuitive and not explained to the playerbase at all, causing wide variance in numbers due to something as basic as researching the class quite substantially to find out this quirk exists to begin with. I'm all for adding more abilities to the primals to make up for the loss of aetherflow, and it would allow stuff to be put there in turn since that's 4 buttons by itself freed up, but it shouldn't be oGCDs magically causing more wyrmwaves.

If the devs designed it right, however, they can really start compressing some bar space by making EA1/2 turn into demi-primal abilities, and it would flow in the rotation more naturally without cluttering bar space. And since EA1/2 are both on 30s cooldowns, we still have stuff to do on the rest periods, which is what we ultimately want from the class. Downtime to be downtime, uptime to be uptime, and having a solid flow to the class, which ED/ES doesn't contribute towards.