Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

[Dyvid]

More brainstorming here. So I'm start to feel like Trance is really killing the stead flow here, that they should have reworked DWT similar to FBT. They should either merge Demi-B with DWT or separate Demi-P from FBT.

-DWT changes Outburst to PainFlare and R3 to R4 or Fester.
-Enhanced Dreadwyrm Trance II basically just summons Bahamut when DWT is cast.
-Energy Drain adds 4 stacks of Aetherflow
-Aetherflow is the resource to use Egi Assaults.

[Gallus]

Would have it killed them to do something like DWT -> Bahamut, FBT -> Phoenix? And then keep the aetherflow at a 60 sec timer with 3 stacks, and not this convoluted mess?

[CecMiller]

More brainstorming here. So I'm start to feel like Trance is really killing the stead flow here, that they should have reworked DWT similar to FBT. They should either merge Demi-B with DWT or separate Demi-P from FBT.

-DWT changes Outburst to PainFlare and R3 to R4 or Fester.
-Enhanced Dreadwyrm Trance II basically just summons Bahamut when DWT is cast.
-Energy Drain adds 4 stacks of Aetherflow
-Aetherflow is the resource to use Egi Assaults.

I think DWT will eventually be combined with Bahamut in the way FBT and phoenix are. However, I can also understand people requesting FBT and Phoenix Summon to be decoupled in the way DWT and Bahamut is. I think they will end up consolidating them however to make room for another demi summon some time in the future possibly? I'm not sure how they could do it with a 2 minute cycle without extending it to 3 minutes say. Summoner would really be special in that regard then for having one of the longest cycles.

Its entirely possible we don't get a 3rd demi summon... but the synergy is there! Tri-Disaster, Tri-Bind (Outburst now). Tri-Bind/Outburst has 3 colours, Blue, Red/Orange and Green, 3 minute rotation, 3 pets. We already have Blue and Orange/Red - that leaves green, but I'm off topic now.

I'm not sure how I'd feel about Aetherflow being linked to Egi Assaults. In their current incarnation? I could see it happen as the stacks themselves could also become Ruin 4 Generators. 4 AF stacks a minute, 4 Ruin 4's a minute as is possible right now. That said, I'd want Egi Assaults to be a bit more potent if such a change was considerered - Right now they're pretty feeble and feels like APM pad if it was not for the fact that they generate us important Ruin 4 stacks.

Would have it killed them to do something like DWT -> Bahamut, FBT -> Phoenix? And then keep the aetherflow at a 60 sec timer with 3 stacks, and not this convoluted mess?

I'd be more than happy to get the old Aetherflow back - and it wouldnt take that much effort to re-introduce it. As for seperating FBT and Phoenix, that would certainly be interesting and it would feel like we would have less downtime due to the phoenix following a forced full duration FBT. I personally have no horse in this race - I'm fine with it as is, and I'm fine with it being changed. It is jarring in some way to have us be able to weave Egi Assaults during FBT whilst levelling and then having that be removed at level 80. I wonder if this is the case for any other job?

[Kyohei]

[QUOTE=CecMiller;5053997]Hey there,



1) Energy Drain/Energy Siphon requires a target and is incredibly frustrating when there is any forced downtime.


2) The removal of flexibility regarding trance timings and the current Aetherflow detachment from the cycle creates some frustrating gameplay experiences.


6) Bahamut feels awkward to use.


9) Slipstream on garuda.


10) The class arguable got more complex/harder.


/QUOTE]

As for the other points, i've not noticed it so can't be bothered by them or enjoy them. Simply neutral.

1) It did feel annoying the first hour i played but then was okay.
2) I haven't experienced any frustration regarding this matter yet because i'm constantly busy thanks to the new design the job that's including a 3 layer rotation rather than one big rotation.
6) Yeah bahamut does feel awkward idly standing there, his wyrmwave animation is still barely noticeable so it doesn't help :/ seem like a floating statue moving around with you...
9) The lack of feedback on pet annoys me the most with current smn, i have to put garuda in focus if i want them and this shouldn't be like this. We need to have feedback in some way, putting the dot on mobs like you said should be how it is rather than on garuda. it makes no sense to make the dot time feedback on an entity that's not represented anywhere on HUD...
10) This is the reason why I like playing SMN again actually i actually now feel like i'm not bored compared to all the other jobs except NIN. However i can understand why some might not like it, but it's still nice that some jobs are more complex than others so there's for all tastes.

I'm not 80 with SMN yet but I'm very please with my current rotation that allows me to never be bored.

Still at lvl 77 right now but what i'm doing right now is cutting the rotation into three layers to make the most of it and never have a skill sitting down:

1st layer: tri-disaster, energy drain (or the aoe one), dreadwyrm trance+devotion, use egi assault coupled with insta ruin IV and eventually insert some fester/painflare, blow dreadwyrm trance at 1-2s left
By that time you have energy drain cd ready and stacks of insta ruin.
2nd layer: Summon bahamut and akh morn, tri disater, energy drain, use a stack of ruin, fester, use stack of ruin and possibly another one, second akh morn, fester/painflare, use last stack of ruin, then proceed to ruin II spamming until bahamut goes away
You then have some time before phoenix trance is up so i'm using it to reapply dots, energy drain and replenish stacks of ruin (using egi assaults) .
3rd layer: phoenix trance+ devotion, fountain of fire, fester/painflare, brand of purgatory, and repeat it until the time's up (while inserting some energy drain at some point instead of fester cause no more stack of aetherflow)

Doing this I'm never waiting for something or having unused skills/sitting on cds.

[Myon88]

Summoner was always a '3 layer job' or whatever you want to call it, nothing has changed in that regard.

1. Generate and spend aetherflow
2. Activate dreadwyrm trance (twice)
3. Summon demi bahamut, repeat

Well, actually something has changed. The old version was more flexible because within each 1 minute interval after aetherflow, you could choose to use dreadwyrm trance and summon bahamut at any time you liked. With the new system, the first step in the cycle is to activate dreadwyrm trance, and if you do so at 0:05 at the beginning of the fight for example, you must activate it again at 1:05 in order to maximize your damage. If the boss chooses to disappear at 1:00 for some reason, now you have a serious dilemma on your hands.

I'm pretty sure the starter of this thread knows all this stuff very well because of their extensive raid experience. In fact, I think you will find that the more experienced someone is with summoner, the more they tend to dislike the 5.0 changes because they have a full understanding of all the liabilities the new design contains.

[Kyohei]

I've been playing this job since ARR and no it wasn't always like this. ARR smn wasn't, HW smn wasn't, SB smn started a bit by repeating dreadwyrm rotation twice then summoning bahamut. However the SB smn seemed like a rough and clunky sketch of what it's become now. ShB according to me made a clearer design for smn job.
All i can say it that for now i find this new design more fun to play and a lot less clunky than its SB iteration.
I don't think one really ever "choose" to use dreadwyrm trance or summon bahamut. Maybe there was an illusion of choice and flexibility but once bahamut was ready, one would summon it. Using dreadwyrm instead of bahamut would be a waste a dreadwyrm and postpone the ability to summon bahamut again. The system how it's designed now remove this possibility to "waste" anything. It's just a matter of getting used to the whole thing and seeing it differently.
Also still the beginning of the new expansion so no one can say they understand all of its content and gotten used to/mastered all of them.
Not liking the new smn because they were experienced with SB one? Maybe, because most of the time the more experienced you are with a job, the less easy it is to accept/understand changes and adapt. The brain being wired into the previous iteration makes it so, and it often takes more than a week to adapt to new things. Especially if it's one's main job and they've been doing the same thing for all these years. However it's inaccurate and certainly not a fact to link disliking and fully understanding the new design.

[SchrodingersWaffle]

In fact, I think you will find that the more experienced someone is with summoner, the more they tend to dislike the 5.0 changes because they have a full understanding of all the liabilities the new design contains.

I mean, I like the idea that they had behind it and the very general direction they were going with it, e.g. Make SMN more about Summons and less about DoTs/Bahamut, but the execution leaves a lot to be desired and pretty much every point you, Nemehk and CecMiller have made is pretty spot on.

[SchrodingersWaffle]

I've been playing this job since ARR and no it wasn't always like this. ARR smn wasn't, HW smn wasn't, SB smn started a bit by repeating dreadwyrm rotation twice then summoning bahamut. However the SB smn seemed like a rough and clunky sketch of what it's become now. ShB according to me made a clearer design for smn job.
All i can say it that for now i find this new design more fun to play and a lot less clunky than its SB iteration.
I don't think one really ever "choose" to use dreadwyrm trance or summon bahamut. Maybe there was an illusion of choice and flexibility but once bahamut was ready, one would summon it. Using dreadwyrm instead of bahamut would be a waste a dreadwyrm and postpone the ability to summon bahamut again. The system how it's designed now remove this possibility to "waste" anything. It's just a matter of getting used to the whole thing and seeing it differently.
Also still the beginning of the new expansion so no one can say they understand all of its content and gotten used to/mastered all of them.
Not liking the new smn because they were experienced with SB one? Maybe, because most of the time the more experienced you are with a job, the less easy it is to accept/understand changes and adapt. The brain being wired into the previous iteration makes it so, and it often takes more than a week to adapt to new things. Especially if it's one's main job and they've been doing the same thing for all these years. However it's inaccurate and certainly not a fact to link disliking and fully understanding the new design.

I feel like you're lacking a little bit of an understanding of the job. I mean yeah ARR SMN was pretty much DoT and dot maintenance and maximizing Raging Strikes damage uptime via manipulating DoT snapshots, but HW SMN was all about how many DWT you could line up one right after the other by abusing the timers on aethertrails and Aetherflow which added a significant layer of complexity which you could use to hold your burst phases for either party buffs or to avoid boss invulnerability phases. With SB Summoner you could absolutely hold both Bahamut and DWT for up to 40secs each depending on the CD on Aetherflow, you could even build towards your next DWT during Bahamut which lead to an even further level of complexity and choice there.

We've lost pretty much ALL of that. If you don't want to take a massive damage loss, you use Trance/Bahamut as soon as they're available, otherwise you're pushing back Bahamuts and Phoenixs later in the fight, most likely pushing them out of alignment with things like Trick Attack, AST Cards and DNC dances.

[Kyohei]

If you want to assume i'm not understanding the job because i like ShB summoner then whatever.
That said, i'm very much aware of how we used to play HW smn to maximise the trance and explained it to many people who asked how i was managing such dps with smn back then. But it wasn't a three layers rotation, it was one complete big rotation.
Yes we could do that with SB smn but again it doesn't make up for the fact it was a clunky job to play and not as well rounded and fun to play as how HW smn was. ShB complexity resides in the ability to make the most of dreadwyrm/demi bahamut/phoenix while at the same time making sure nothing stays unused, and being able to keep track of stacks of ruins/aetheflow up for Bahamut, and aetherflow ready for phoenix. The choices/complexity/optimisation now resides no more on how many trance/demis you can pull off per X second but on how you will make the most of them by choosing which of your other skills to coupled to them. That's why i'm saying it's now a clearer 3 layers rotation, because you don't choose anymore when to dreadwyrm/demi. You don't optimise anymore on the time to have them but during the time you have them.

[SchrodingersWaffle]

If you want to assume i'm not understanding the job because i like ShB summoner then whatever.
That said, i'm very much aware of how we used to play HW smn to maximise the trance and explained it to many people who asked how i was managing such dps with smn back then. But it wasn't a three layers rotation, it was one complete big rotation.
Yes we could do that with SB smn but again it doesn't make up for the fact it was a clunky job to play and not as well rounded and fun to play as how HW smn was. ShB complexity resides in the ability to make the most of dreadwyrm/demi bahamut/phoenix while at the same time making sure nothing stays unused, and being able to keep track of stacks of ruins/aetheflow up for Bahamut, and aetherflow ready for phoenix. The choices/complexity/optimisation now resides no more on how many trance/demis you can pull off but on how you will make the most of them by choosing which of your other skills to coupled to them.

I'm not assuming you're lacking in understanding because you like ShB SMN. I'm saying you're lacking in understanding because you're saying that when we used DWT and Demi-Bahamut wasn't really a choice or that it was an illusion of choice. Which is objectively and patently false. As is the idea that the way things are now removes the ability for us to "waste" a DWT, Bahamut or a Phoenix. Those absolutely can still be wasted, it's just not up to us whether or not it's wasted or not anymore because not using them on CD is a damage loss regardless of whether there's a target or not, or whether or not Trick Attack/AST Cards are up. There's very little optimization to be made in that gameplay, and if you can't see that then I can't really help you.