Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

[dinnertime]

I'd just like to point out that there is absolutely nothing about DoTs being on the class that makes the class innately more, or less, mobile. The only things that affect mobility are range and whether you have cast times or not. Ranged DPS are innately more mobile than melee because if a boss zones out melee, they lose a lot of damage while the rDPS just ignores the boss movement. Casters are innately the least mobile, but SMN used to be the most mobile because it would cost them 20 potency to instant cast, they had 15s of guaranteed mobility every minute, and a further 20 seconds of optimized mobility every 2 minutes. That has since been taken away which is why the class feels so much less mobile, especially because SMNs cannot let the DoTs lapse anymore or they lose substantially more damage.

The reason why SMN is (or was now) considered mobile than BLM especially around 2.x and 3.x days was because SMN's main form of damage came from abilities that can damage enemies on their own, which were DoTs and the Egi's (which are basically glorified DoTs, too). Along with Ruin 2 not being too punishing to use. I'll clarify it now that it doesn't directly give SMN mobility but it contributes to it since SMN doesn't have to worry too much about damage falloff while moving around because of them, but now that there's more things to SMN's kit and with DoTs and Egi damage being cut down for these new things, it's not a significant of a contribution like before.

[HeulGDarian]

The reason why SMN is (or was now) considered mobile than BLM especially around 2.x and 3.x days was because SMN's main form of damage came from abilities that can damage enemies on their own, which were DoTs and the Egi's (which are basically glorified DoTs, too). Along with Ruin 2 not being too punishing to use. I'll clarify it now that it doesn't directly give SMN mobility but it contributes to it since SMN doesn't have to worry too much about damage falloff while moving around because of them, but now that there's more things to SMN's kit and with DoTs and Egi damage being cut down for these new things, it's not a significant of a contribution like before.

Honestly Yoshi p said that they wanted to fix some rotation problems and make him more summoner like by having you swap pets around more often. As always they tried to make everyone happy with this even though it backfired so much. Though it backfired not for what it is but for trying to become what isn't. Most of the problems are numbers like cooldown of the dots or devotion and the damage numbers of the ruins and the egis , The fester ruins being a combination of both . The biggest problem though is the aetherflow and trance change making us lose most of our flexibility. Trying to remove or in this case touch the core of the job is like trying to remove your own intestines but it's not like it wasn't asked by some people . I'm pretty sure that if people didn't keep saying summoner isn't a summoner cause of the arcanist line so remove it , THIS wouldn't have happened . this is why I'm frustrated how people after seeing them touch the core and now the job is worse insist on asking change it even more . Obviously this is just 2 parties yanking a rope between them without being able to come to terms. and i can't really talk about it since I'm favouring one side much more than the other, not without reason ofc . This is worse than 4.0 where most people jumped ship from summoner to rdm.

[Taranok]

so that would only work if you reworked the whole class? You would have to spend more stuff in order to make that better than the dots and you think that's a good idea?

Unfortunately, that's actually what the class needs, so yes. The DoTs actually detract from the playstyle of the class at this point, both directly and indireclty. Ruination actively hurts SMN's design and with how tight the timings are, if you cast DoTs even a second too soon with TD, you will lose it the damage bonus for 1-2 GCDs.

It is a classic example of something that sounds good on paper but in practice flat out doesn't work right.

And if we're going to start deleting mechanics, other things have to be brought up OR ADDED. So if you remove Ruination, you need to add 20 potency to every ruin spell at a 50-75% rate to maintain damage neutrality. If you remove DoTs, that's about 70 as well over every GCD on average. You can't just rip one thing out without everything being affected, and that's a lazier way of doing it where it's not actually a rework.

[dinnertime]

It's why I don't really ask for much for SMN. I've learned to love and accept what SMN was around HW and only wished for QoL changes and improvements to its mechanics, especially the summons. They did deliver in 4.x with Demi Bahamut even though it needed work (and still does), but SMN especially at 4.1 was in a good place than ever before.

I wish most people felt the same but you're right, the SMN community is too divided that it's possible that's the reason why this is happening right now.

[Dracan_Fontom]

I honestly wish they would have made Egis similar abilities to what BRD songs became in SB. Each egi could even give a unique buff to the smn like brd songs do. They could've even a step further by having each egi "evolving" into a demi summon after a certain time using them. Garuda evolves into Bahamut. Ifrit to Phoenix. Etc.

I think this could have been a very interesting concept for summoner and would allow for the class to evolve like other classes like drg or blm while keeping to core mechanics.

Also can Ruin 3 and Ruin 2 be combined? I feel like there's no point in it them being separate skill anymore since using Ruin 2 is now considered a considerable dps loss.

[HeulGDarian]

Unfortunately, that's actually what the class needs, so yes. The DoTs actually detract from the playstyle of the class at this point, both directly and indireclty. Ruination actively hurts SMN's design and with how tight the timings are, if you cast DoTs even a second too soon with TD, you will lose it the damage bonus for 1-2 GCDs.

It is a classic example of something that sounds good on paper but in practice flat out doesn't work right.

And if we're going to start deleting mechanics, other things have to be brought up OR ADDED. So if you remove Ruination, you need to add 20 potency to every ruin spell at a 50-75% rate to maintain damage neutrality. If you remove DoTs, that's about 70 as well over every GCD on average. You can't just rip one thing out without everything being affected, and that's a lazier way of doing it where it's not actually a rework.

that is a cooldown problem and as for ruination it should just be given to miasma. The glaring problem that actually is a detriment is festerruin. Also your idea is buffling to me you're saying that we should remove dots cause it's detrimental to this job and then you say it's for a reworked summoner version so it obviously isn't a fix but it isn't something new either and the problems i told you with this idea still stand they would be less usable than the dots . Also its not just the dots rigid it's the whole rotation cause they changed aetherflow if you return aetherflow you fix the rigidness of it cause all of a sudden you can rush trance.

[HeulGDarian]

I honestly wish they would have made Egis similar abilities to what BRD songs became in SB. Each egi could even give a unique buff to the smn like brd songs do. They could've even a step further by having each egi "evolving" into a demi summon after a certain time using them. Garuda evolves into Bahamut. Ifrit to Phoenix. Etc.

I think this could have been a very interesting concept for summoner and would allow for the class to evolve like other classes like drg or blm while keeping to core mechanics.

Also can Ruin 3 and Ruin 2 be combined? I feel like there's no point in it them being separate skill anymore since using Ruin 2 is now considered a considerable dps loss.

just buffing ruin 2 a bit will sort the discrepancy. Also from aetherflow to trance is our fire 4/blizzard 4 rotation and the demi is our xenoglossy or your rotation till you get 2 jumps and demis is our life of the dragon if you prefer that.
i agree though egis do need to be fixed and instead of songs id rather have the different summon different devotion like bard had . if only they could balance them

[Dracan_Fontom]

Aetherflow to trance argument would have worked in HW and SB but now, no in my opinion. Since Aetherflow use is no longer tied to getting your trances, it have the same feeling of the job evolving through leveling like BotD and Ecochin does now.

[HeulGDarian]

Aetherflow to trance argument would have worked in HW and SB but now, no in my opinion. Since Aetherflow use is no longer tied to getting your trances, it have the same feeling of the job evolving through leveling like BotD and Ecochin does now.

i do mean that way X) just getting aetherflow without it tieing to trance would be dumb.if we got back aetherflow without it tieing to trance like it was before id be crying laughing and then cry for real after TT

[HeulGDarian]

Unfortunately, that's actually what the class needs, so yes. The DoTs actually detract from the playstyle of the class at this point, both directly and indireclty. Ruination actively hurts SMN's design and with how tight the timings are, if you cast DoTs even a second too soon with TD, you will lose it the damage bonus for 1-2 GCDs.

It is a classic example of something that sounds good on paper but in practice flat out doesn't work right.

And if we're going to start deleting mechanics, other things have to be brought up OR ADDED. So if you remove Ruination, you need to add 20 potency to every ruin spell at a 50-75% rate to maintain damage neutrality. If you remove DoTs, that's about 70 as well over every GCD on average. You can't just rip one thing out without everything being affected, and that's a lazier way of doing it where it's not actually a rework.

Also less stuff makes balancing harder. Also Also its easier to simply revert the changes the arguement of this is bad, lets delete it and since we started lets rework the whole class especially since youve already said that the class is not to your taste and even more so when the job functioned nearly perfect before those changes and all it needed was polish goes to say how forcefully youre trying to shoehorn a rework. Youre not making an arguement youre throwing a fit of how much you disliked summoner and how you still do. Youre literally playing with the pain those Who liked it feel.