Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

[CecMiller]

The logs for SMN's rdps only gets lower the worse you go based on initial clears:

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=68&dataset=50

It's important to note that these are week 1 clears and so a small swing in dps will result in large percentile differences (and its why 50th percentile bracket is not a bad choice) - For the most part however, those who are hardcore savage raiders clear the fights in week 1 and it is telling that SMN is pretty low at all percentiles on the final fight. Summoner is bottom 3 regardless of which percentile you pick.

Infact, 30th percentile and below it is the worst job for rdps at this time. There are a multitude of reasons for this and these stats are not necessarily a true depiction of how things stand as some jobs may have had gear prioritized more than others and there is a lot of luck associated who won gear on earlier floors which could bring the average up. What is telling is that RDM is higher at all percentiles. RDM clearly does not need nerfs however (if anything, it deserves more buffs). It's just telling how weak SMN is at this current time due to the current design iteration of the job and its reduced flexibility, rigid mobility timings, fester ruins and how much downtime can punish you.

The job is in a bad spot and I would very much like our cycle based on Aetherflow again as it was a great system and very underappreciated. You did not need the Aetherflow lockouts in trance either as you could simply have DWT or FBT activatable as soon as you refreshed Aetherflow meaning you could use said stacks inside DWT/FBT. Further, to distinguish DWT/FBT setup in this way, you could rename the Aetherflow mechanic to Energy Drain which makes DWT activatable on refresh and Energy Drain upgrades to Energy Siphon after you have already used Energy Drain and it is on cooldown or DWT ending which signifies that the next trance available will be FBT and so on. It would have been a very nice and straight forward improvement on the old 4.1 system. Instead we have this more rigid system which has many faults.

[Taranok]

I just don't understand why they always make SMN so complex and convoluted... just when you think it cannot get worse.

The issue is that the devs had 1 of 3 things happen:

1. The abilities were designed in a vacuum without respect for how it all meshed together.
2. There were several devs working on the class, not properly communicating.
3. The devs were given marching orders on what they could remove, what they could not, what they had to keep around, get rid of, and so on.

That last one is, by far, the most likely, because it makes sense for someone on high to give a general opinion of "You need to keep these things around," but doesn't realize that in saying that, the other changes they want to implement don't mesh well.

Ultimately, the class just flat out needs a rework like what Machinist got. It's no longer even an option to consider letting the class stay as is, it needs to have its entire core defined from an early level and the class designed around the core. Even if the class loses some fun/good things, it NEEDS to happen.

It would just be nice to have a use for the other pets. Yeah I'm not a huge fan of adding more buttons but if it means more deeps than I'm in, it sucks being so weak for such an intricate rotation at least some potency would justify it. There's a whole slew of other issues I'd like to see adjusted or at least officially acknowledged by SE.

The problem is Contagion created more problems than it solves, and the pet swap is a clunky system to begin with. To put it another way, there were times where I went "I have an EA1 charge, and I need titan's barrier." And every single time I just died because I couldn't swap the pet out fast enough. You lose DPS to pet swap, period. And Contagion, both iterations of the ability, have broken the class in a way only Ninjas can understand. The problems are Snapshotting and general clunkiness of pet commands, which still exist, just are massively mitigated now. I've still seen things like having Aetherpact completely dropped before. It just happened to me earlier today in a dungeon, so these are not idle concerns.

[Dyvid]

The logs for SMN's rdps only gets lower the worse you go based on initial clears:

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=68&dataset=50

It's important to note that these are week 1 clears and so a small swing in dps will result in large percentile differences (and its why 50th percentile bracket is not a bad choice) - For the most part however, those who are hardcore savage raiders clear the fights in week 1 and it is telling that SMN is pretty low at all percentiles on the final fight. Summoner is bottom 3 regardless of which percentile you pick.

Infact, 30th percentile and below it is the worst job for rdps at this time. There are a multitude of reasons for this and these stats are not necessarily a true depiction of how things stand as some jobs may have had gear prioritized more than others and there is a lot of luck associated who won gear on earlier floors which could bring the average up. What is telling is that RDM is higher at all percentiles. RDM clearly does not need nerfs however (if anything, it deserves more buffs). It's just telling how weak SMN is at this current time due to the current design iteration of the job and its reduced flexibility, rigid mobility timings, fester ruins and how much downtime can punish you.

The job is in a bad spot and I would very much like our cycle based on Aetherflow again as it was a great system and very underappreciated. You did not need the Aetherflow lockouts in trance either as you could simply have DWT or FBT activatable as soon as you refreshed Aetherflow meaning you could use said stacks inside DWT/FBT. Further, to distinguish DWT/FBT setup in this way, you could rename the Aetherflow mechanic to Energy Drain which makes DWT activatable on refresh and Energy Drain upgrades to Energy Siphon after you have already used Energy Drain and it is on cooldown or DWT ending which signifies that the next trance available will be FBT and so on. It would have been a very nice and straight forward improvement on the old 4.1 system. Instead we have this more rigid system which has many faults.

While we don't disagree that SMN mechanics need work I'm just curious why you are focusing on Titan rather than the entire Eden Savage set?

[Vulcwen]

The logs for SMN's rdps only gets lower the worse you go based on initial clears:

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=68&dataset=50
(...)

It would indicate that SMN is in a bad spot for progression due to it's difficulty, but I don't like basing conclusions off a sample size of 100.
That said, I noticed that the bottom 6 dps are actually really close, there is some really good balance there. The problem is that 3 melee jobs and BLM are really far ahead of everyone else. This means the base comp would be BLM, MNK, DRG, and then you have SAM (has enough dps to compensate not bringing a ranged), all ranged dps (brings a 1% party buff) and SMN/RDM competing for the 4th spot. The only reason to bring a SMN or RDM is for raise in prog, so SMN being hard in progression would indeed be a problem.

[Dyvid]

It would indicate that SMN is in a bad spot for progression due to it's difficulty, but I don't like basing conclusions off a sample size of 100.
That said, I noticed that the bottom 6 dps are actually really close, there is some really good balance there. The problem is that 3 melee jobs and BLM are really far ahead of everyone else. This means the base comp would be BLM, MNK, DRG, and then you have SAM (has enough dps to compensate not bringing a ranged), all ranged dps (brings a 1% party buff) and SMN/RDM competing for the 4th spot. The only reason to bring a SMN or RDM is for raise in prog, so SMN being hard in progression would indeed be a problem.

Honestly I'm shocked on how well DRG and MNK are doing over the "selfish DPS" like BLM, SAM, and MCH. It's clear to see 5.1 is going to rebalance some of the jobs.

[HeulGDarian]

The issue is that the devs had 1 of 3 things happen:

That last one is, by far, the most likely, because it makes sense for someone on high to give a general opinion of "You need to keep these things around," but doesn't realize that in saying that, the other changes they want to implement don't mesh well.

Ultimately, the class just flat out needs a rework like what Machinist got. It's no longer even an option to consider letting the class stay as is, it needs to have its entire core defined from an early level and the class designed around the core. Even if the class loses some fun/good things, it NEEDS to happen.



The problem is Contagion created more problems than it solves, and the pet swap is a clunky system to begin with. To put it another way, there were times where I went "I have an EA1 charge, and I need titan's barrier." And every single time I just died because I couldn't swap the pet out fast enough. You lose DPS to pet swap, period. And Contagion, both iterations of the ability, have broken the class in a way only Ninjas can understand. The problems are Snapshotting and general clunkiness of pet commands, which still exist, just are massively mitigated now. I've still seen things like having Aetherpact completely dropped before. It just happened to me earlier today in a dungeon, so these are not idle concerns.

the pet system is unbalanced and it always was that is why we stuck to the highest dps available. Smn does lose dps on pet swap yes but all it needs is to be refined so that you can minimize loss and maximize gains like giving ifrit a gap closer so that he doesn't have to walk to the boss or giving garuda and titan actions that would give you a reason to swap for a small potency loss but higher dps gain in the long run . Contagion never was like nins trick attack it was something that was used only when you went with 2 casters compositions while if you had only summoner as the magic dps you would go for ifrit unless he wasn't the highest dps pet that patch . The rework failed be it badly implemented or implemented without care or it was unexpected them . What needs to happen is for some of the changes to be reverted. But even if it does happen the next expansion will be a rework again why? cause the devs try to please all of the fan bases . there are people who dislike trance but like arr summoner , there are people who Don't like that summoner has ruins and miasma/bio , there are those who don't like the egis , there are those who don't like the complexity, there are those who hated the big rotation. Thus they reworked the class and this is what happened . no we don't need another rework we need of instead of trying to rip the job apart to ask improvements on what summoner brought to the table.

[HeulGDarian]

the plan of reworking failed we either learn from our failures or we will keep repeating them. Personally i think stormblood is the best iteration the summoner ever had and 5.0 brought the changed actions and the devotion on entrance in demi summoning this is where we should head these were the good ideas ,we don't need to build upon the bad foundation that is energydrain and newtrance nor do we need to remove old stuff to forcefully rework this job.

let me quote Dyvid from another post he said it best "find a job you actually enjoy rather than the one you want to enjoy"
lots of people like what summoner brought in 4.1 and we wanted to see it expand on that . Imagine our disappointment when it got reworked . Smn doesn't need to become easier Smn doesn't need to have his dots removed Smn doesn't need to get 1 attack animation summons honestly that is a disgrace to the smn and the summon like having the egi actions without the egis. Smn doesn't need to be removed from arcanist or scholar . Devs want it to be removed cause it makes their job easier on that front but they have shown that there is no problem . many like what summoner can be but did anyone like what smn actually is? the 5.0 smn is the devs listening to everyone in theory that was what people wanted .

[dinnertime]

I'm not even sure why they reworked SMN in the first place. It's been well-received ever since it got that rework in 4.1, and all it needed was the QoL changes.

[remiff]

Only seen the last square patch enix is ​​not ready to want to buff the Summoner,
can just hope for a little rework for the 5.1 .

But yes for me the Summoner deserves to be a little more forward at the level of his potency,
cross finger for 5.06 :/

[Roda]

I'm not even sure why they reworked SMN in the first place. It's been well-received ever since it got that rework in 4.1, and all it needed was the QoL changes.

My reaction for the liveletter:
yoship: "Some classes will undergo significant changes"
me: "oh?"
YoshiP: "like machinist"
Me: "yeah ok hopefully they'll get it right this time"
YoshiP: "Bard"
Me: "Oh maybe they'll be doing more musical things than bow things!" (Oh how hopeful I was)
YoshiP: "And summoner"
Me: "Oh no..."