Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

[FrejyaAthenes]

I feel like they should've either combined Dreadwyrm Trancecand Demi-Bahamut (taking a page from Firebird Trance's book, Ruin III becomes Wyrmwave and Outburst becomes Deathflare) and increased both the times to 30s, or separate Firebird Trance and Demi-Phoenix so that you van flow from trance to demi to trance to demi with hopefully less downtime.

[Roda]

I feel like they should've either combined Dreadwyrm Trancecand Demi-Bahamut (taking a page from Firebird Trance's book, Ruin III becomes Wyrmwave and Outburst becomes Deathflare) and increased both the times to 30s, or separate Firebird Trance and Demi-Phoenix so that you van flow from trance to demi to trance to demi with hopefully less downtime.

I think they'd have to change how ruin II/IV works then 'cause DWT is where I kind of recover from having to move and build up the majority of ruin IV stacks so I won't have to use ruin II to weave in the future. :T

[dinnertime]

Really, turn R3 into some phoenix like nuke and fester into special weave attack (noodle code probably won't allow that) tho probably no need for double weaves or even making weave attack to trigger WW. I personally fine with double weaving cause my ping allows me to do it, but I understand why a lot of people prefer not to

Definitely. Instant Ruin III's or whatever upgraded version people are suggesting, or basically DWT and Bahamut combined/copying FBT for Bahamut. If people have a problem with double weaves, maybe keep it so Fester is the only ogcd that can trigger Wyrmwave.
Personally I prefer ogcds allowing Wyrmwave to trigger because it keeps both the SMN and Bahamut active in a good way, but with changes like these I wouldn't mind it if it doesn't.

[Angry_Evil]

Kinda shocking that after 4.0 disaster, all the feedback and YEARS that's what we've got... That's whole another level of incompetence and detachment from reality. No idea what were they thinking...

[IlSire]

I like the idea behind the rework but I find the execution far from elegant.

DWT should really work like FBT at this point by passively integrating Summon Bahamuth in it since it feels clunky and unnecessary, especially after losing its damage buff.
Just like what happens with FBT, DWT should also temporary upgrade Ruin III into Wyrmwaves and Outburst into Death Flare, Enkindle Bahamuth could go for Mega Flare which is also Bahamuth's classic signature attack and would at least look different.

Egis are another point which overall seem like a half-executed idea.

Garuda is the only one which does what it is supposed to do: aoe specialist, has its niche, good.

Ifrit doesn't really need a weak aoe as Egi Assault II with the same potency of its single target ability, make it a full fledged single target specialist and give it a single target DoT instead.
If we need AoE we should just summon Garuda anyway, it's istant and free.

Titan has (finally) a good concept as a walking defensive cooldown but it still feels too punishing, and pointless, to use most of the time.
Allow Egi Assault to proc Ruin IV and remove the weak, useless, aoe from Egi Assault II and turn it into something for what Titan is supposed to do: support.
How about a Gaol on self that gives a brief invulnerability? A weak aoe Stoneskin effect for the whole party? Or maybe something for DPS, like a crit buff?

[kirby200]

3) As a follow up to the changes to the trances, we are now forced to drop dots for a few ticks at some points due to the rigid 60s cooldown.

As previously we could enter DWT/FBT of our own accord (as long as we had spent Aetherflow stacks), we could make use of the tri-disaster resets to keep close to maximum uptime on our dots. With the current changes, it is inevitable that we now will have an occurence of lost dot ticks and so have the occassional unbuffed ruin. This is pretty annoying to deal with and consider the effect this has when there exists a debuff limit for fates, hunts and Eureka like content. SMN is unnecessarily gimped by the design.


Totally agree, feels awkward and an awful period in the rotation where you feel useless, hate it.

[Taranok]

Kinda shocking that after 4.0 disaster, all the feedback and YEARS that's what we've got... That's whole another level of incompetence and detachment from reality. No idea what were they thinking...

Because the devs are working within a framework that is beyond what we, as customers, can see. The devs hate Egis as much as we do, and they're desperately trying to find a way to make Summoner feel like Summoner as much as we want them to. But things will hamper this. For instance, Arcanist lore makes it difficult to get rid of Egis. Aetherflow is kind of ingrained into Summoner and Arcanist both at a lore and gameplay level. The devs need to find ways to keep these various disparate bits intact, which leads to SMN feeling awful because of it.

The best thing to happen to Machinist was when the devs legitimately treated the class as no longer being sacred, but profane, and started gutting it, even going so far as to remove an ability from a class quest that was core to the class, Gauss Barrel. And look how much better MCH is now for it. SMN needs the same treatment but it's not a decision to be taken lightly to literally gut core features to the lore. But that's what Summoner needs as well if they are to turn it into a proper summoner, and the devs just are trying to work within the framework they already have instead of treating it as profane and not caring about what they do so long as the end results are where they want the class to be.

[Poppet]

Not BLM is the worst job since SB MCH. Maybe even worst since 2.0 WAR. It does nothing BLM doesn't already do except raise and give a meager 5% damage buff every 180 seconds.

It has worse mobility than BLM.
It has worse damage than BLM.
It has the worst aoe in game bar Ninja.
It's clunkier than BLM.
Using your abilities can be an actual dps loss.
It has nothing of actual value or meaning that can't be done by another job.

It's unworthy of even being called by its job title. It would be an insult to any other expansion's Not BLM.

[Anvaire]

Because the devs are working within a framework that is beyond what we, as customers, can see. The devs hate Egis as much as we do, and they're desperately trying to find a way to make Summoner feel like Summoner as much as we want them to. But things will hamper this. For instance, Arcanist lore makes it difficult to get rid of Egis. Aetherflow is kind of ingrained into Summoner and Arcanist both at a lore and gameplay level. The devs need to find ways to keep these various disparate bits intact, which leads to SMN feeling awful because of it.

The best thing to happen to Machinist was when the devs legitimately treated the class as no longer being sacred, but profane, and started gutting it, even going so far as to remove an ability from a class quest that was core to the class, Gauss Barrel. And look how much better MCH is now for it. SMN needs the same treatment but it's not a decision to be taken lightly to literally gut core features to the lore. But that's what Summoner needs as well if they are to turn it into a proper summoner, and the devs just are trying to work within the framework they already have instead of treating it as profane and not caring about what they do so long as the end results are where they want the class to be.

The difference between Summoner and Machinist is that feedback on Machinist was generally aligned. Within Summoner there are two distinct camps. Those that like the job itineration and have played it for a long time despite its shortfalls and those that hate it and want something they call "a real summoner" and don't play it currently. The lore of XIV prevents what is referred to as "a real summoner" being implemented. I place "Real Summoner" in quotations as it seems to differ from person to person. While the current itineration has its problems, I think it is a step in the right direction same as the trances were a step in the right direction. But then I sit in the former camp and like how it is currently.

I think it boils down to the fact that the two design notions are impossible to fully align, therefore we get a bit of both in the current design. I think no matter what the devs do, they cannot please everyone, and it wouldn't be fair to fundamentally change the job, based on the wishes of those who don't play it. So taking the spirit of both ideas, for me, is the right approach.

That said, I do think there is a fundamental issue with the flow of the current job and I think it is caused by the phasic nature of its combined elements. On their own, each element works well and feels fine, but when combined, make the class feel clunky, and have a broken flow. At its core, the job is difficult and complex to play due to its myriad o elements that have short cooldowns and need to be tracked and stranger still is that the job gets a little easier to play at level 80 than it was at 72-79 which I think is a problem albeit one of lesser pertinence.

[Nyoraii]

Because the devs are working within a framework that is beyond what we, as customers, can see. The devs hate Egis as much as we do, and they're desperately trying to find a way to make Summoner feel like Summoner as much as we want them to. But things will hamper this. For instance, Arcanist lore makes it difficult to get rid of Egis. Aetherflow is kind of ingrained into Summoner and Arcanist both at a lore and gameplay level. The devs need to find ways to keep these various disparate bits intact, which leads to SMN feeling awful because of it.

The best thing to happen to Machinist was when the devs legitimately treated the class as no longer being sacred, but profane, and started gutting it, even going so far as to remove an ability from a class quest that was core to the class, Gauss Barrel. And look how much better MCH is now for it. SMN needs the same treatment but it's not a decision to be taken lightly to literally gut core features to the lore. But that's what Summoner needs as well if they are to turn it into a proper summoner, and the devs just are trying to work within the framework they already have instead of treating it as profane and not caring about what they do so long as the end results are where they want the class to be.

I think gameplay is much more important than lore. If the gameplay isn't working, doesn't feel good, the story should align itself with gameplay and not otherwise.

People aren't playing SMN because it doesn't feel right anymore, I've seen a lot of people making the change to SCH now that SMN has been thrown into the thrash.