Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

[Letz]

But what allowed NIN and especially SAM to receive potency buffs while SMN received basically nothing in 5.08?

You could argue for NIN buffs, but there is no reason SAM needed potency buffs.

If they received those buffs to "tide them over" until the rework of 5.1, then why didn't SMN receive them too? The difference between MNK and SAM is non-existent compared to the difference between BLM and SMN.

[Rika007]

I’m sure we’ll get more buffs in 5.1. We were on the list of jobs that needed some pretty big changes.

Buffs are the furthest thing on my mind from importance of Summoner. I'd rather the job be trash tier and fun to play then meta and feel awful to play. If all they do is buff the job to a meta level damage rate and not pay attention to any of the many issues players from all different skill levels have with it's bloated rotation then they really will have taken the lazy way out.

Numbers are easy to tweak. Identity and playstyle are much more difficult. They are taking their time to address those concerns with Ninja. They are at least being receptive to those concerns with Bard even if they disagree with them. I want to see that same approach given to Summoner.

[Anvaire]

But what allowed NIN and especially SAM to receive potency buffs while SMN received basically nothing in 5.08?

You could argue for NIN buffs, but there is no reason SAM needed potency buffs.

If they received those buffs to "tide them over" until the rework of 5.1, then why didn't SMN receive them too? The difference between MNK and SAM is non-existent compared to the difference between BLM and SMN.

Yoshi P did they were tackling it Ninja > Samurai > Summoner

I assume they ran out of time, and just gave us the ruin change.

I think a lot of the issue is they don't really know / can't decide what to do.

I do think we'll get something in 5.1 as they said, it wasn't that they didn't want to say anything, just that they hadn't made any decisions and didn't want to stir things up before they had finalised the changes. Which to me makes sense. Either way, I expect we will see some mechanical change and alongside this buffs.

[Rika007]

But what allowed NIN and especially SAM to receive potency buffs while SMN received basically nothing in 5.08?

You could argue for NIN buffs, but there is no reason SAM needed potency buffs.

If they received those buffs to "tide them over" until the rework of 5.1, then why didn't SMN receive them too? The difference between MNK and SAM is non-existent compared to the difference between BLM and SMN.

Lets not be disingenuous, SAM absolutely needed buffs. It's a greedy DPS job that doesn't output greedy DPS numbers. Jobs with far superior party utility, DRG and MNK were also bringing better damage then SAM to the table as well as their buffs.

[Sequora]

Yoshi P did they were tackling it Ninja > Samurai > Summoner

I assume they ran out of time, and just gave us the ruin change.

I think a lot of the issue is they don't really know / can't decide what to do.

I do think we'll get something in 5.1 as they said, it wasn't that they didn't want to say anything, just that they hadn't made any decisions and didn't want to stir things up before they had finalised the changes. Which to me makes sense. Either way, I expect we will see some mechanical change and alongside this buffs.

I don’t think they said anything about their order of priority. That was just the order in which they asked the questions. SMN needs the most changes imo, not just buffs.

[Taranok]

why? if they make that 2 button don't share CD with each other, doesn't that make SMN rotaion more seamless?

Because you're not decluttering the rotation, you're actually making it vastly denser with more periods of barren time between it. It will end up being harder to follow, stricter, and at the end of the day you're still pushing both buttons basically on cooldown if you can. You run the risk of making a 2m rotation now a 1m rotation and you're still adding buttons to a class that has way too many buttons to begin with. It serves no purpose.

I don’t think they said anything about their order of priority. That was just the order in which they asked the questions. SMN needs the most changes imo, not just buffs.

I believe this is correct, but if you look at the classes:

SAM doesn't need a rework, it just needs potency tweaks. Like BLM on launch of SB, the class largely has a fine rotation, its numbers were just not where they need to be.

NIN needs a rework, but it also needs a potency buff. It's not "just" a rework or "just" a potency buff, but it's not exactly entirely broken, the lion's share of what it needed was DPS, and then it needs a rework to its rotation mostly by strategically altering ninjutsus and altering trick attack somehow.

SMN, unlike NIN, needs a lot more reworks to individual abilities, if not outright pruning, merging, or otherwise massively altering what is fundamentally the entire classes rotation. It doesn't need to be a ground up redo, but it needs some major changes to it. These changes, like NIN's Mudra rework, will take a lot more time to implement, and since the entire rotation is likely to see significant alterations, any change to class DPS now could screw up whatever changes they have planned for 5.1, so it will naturally take more time and, as we saw, they didn't get a single actual potency increase, just a QoL to help make it so you don't need 100% perfect uptime of DoTs else you hemorrhage more DPS than is reasonable off something literally timed down to the tenth of a second (if not more tightly).

So because of this, SMN hopefully will get the most changes in 5.1, and it will be seen in a major rework (by mid-expansion standards) of the classes rotation combined with DPS increases. And I'd hope a number of classes see those DPS increases. RDM, DNC, MCH, to name a few.

[Letz]

Well, I suppose people are split on whether or not NIN and SAM needed potency buffs. Then I suppose my point would be why buff them and not SMN? NIN's and SAM's melee counterparts were doing more damage, yes, but so is SMN's caster counterpart. And NIN has a raid buff, so the greedy dps job vs. buffing dps job perspective doesn't apply with NIN.

So maybe I'll focus on NIN for now:

Similarities:
- Both SMN and NIN have been stated as needing a measurable rework for 5.1, and neither of them received this full rework in 5.08.
- Pre 5.08, both SMN's and NIN's counterparts were doing substantially more rdps than them.
- Both jobs have been acknowledged by the devs as busy or complex.

Differences:
- NIN received blanket potency buffs in 5.08 and SMN did not.

So, then why? People have speculated that favoring the melee's dps so much is to encourage people to continue using 2 melee jobs in comps, even though the 1% party bonus is satisfied by just one. So do us ranged/casters have the party bonus to blame for this? But if so, why is BLM exempt? Is it the dreaded Raise Tax? Because I, for one, would be very disappointed if this continues to plague SMN (and RDM to some degree). No one values a dps rez that much. Having a dps rez is great, but it does not save the party from a wipe as often as the devs assume, and having a dps rez someone instead of a healer does not save the party 1-1.5k dps, especially when no one dies in a fight.

Some of you have stated that you expect a dps increase to accompany the job changes in 5.1, and (although I would still be of the opinion that the increase should have happened by now) I do hope you are right, because if the 5.08 patch containing no dps increases for SMN indicates that this is where the devs want SMN to be dps-wise, I would question what sense of balance they are aiming for between the casters (and all of ranged for that matter).

[Taranok]

To put it another way Letz, RDM needs potency buffs almost as much as SMN does, and they got nothing either. It's a complicated situation across the board. And if you look at NIN, not only did they need the most help of any class short of Dancer, they only touched core parts of the rotation and Bunshin. Ninjutsus were left out across the board, and it makes sense considering the class was really bad while ninjutsus are slated for something.

It's not a grand conspiracy to get people to play melee, nor is it a raise tax. The first major across the board balance passes on class damage will be in 5.1 and 5.2, just as 4.1 and 4.2 were for SB. 4.1 to bring most classes up who needed it, 4.2 to knock classes down that needed it.

And if Summoner doesn't get something significant in 5.1, I'll be furrowing my brows quite a lot. Maximum furrowing, you can be sure!

[Dyvid]

Well, I suppose people are split on whether or not NIN and SAM needed potency buffs. Then I suppose my point would be why buff them and not SMN? NIN's and SAM's melee counterparts were doing more damage, yes, but so is SMN's caster counterpart. And NIN has a raid buff, so the greedy dps job vs. buffing dps job perspective doesn't apply with NIN.

Yes, SAM and NIN needed a buff because it was at the point where they where the least raid effect jobs. Even after the buff MNK and DRG are still ahead of the curve but it helped close the gap. Expect to see some nerfs in 5.1. SMN may be difficult for some to play but it's still holding it's own in terms of dps rankings where as NIN was right at the bottom with or even below DNC.

[Letz]

Yes, SAM and NIN needed a buff because it was at the point where they where the least raid effect jobs. Even after the buff MNK and DRG are still ahead of the curve but it helped close the gap. Expect to see some nerfs in 5.1. SMN may be difficult for some to play but it's still holding it's own in terms of dps rankings where as NIN was right at the bottom with or even below DNC.

I'm not asking whether or not NIN and SAM needed buffs anymore. I already acknowledged people have different perspectives on that.

Now my question is why would they (appropriately, in my opinion) attempt to close the gap between NIN and its melee counterparts, DRG/MNK, but not close the gap between SMN/RDM and its caster counterpart, BLM.

And I agree Taranok, I'm not dumping on the fact that NIN got buffs, and I'm fine with waiting until 5.1 to finally see some fixes for everyone. And I do want to expect something significant for SMN in 5.1, as you are. But the lack of anything in 5.08 vs. the other class's blanket potency buffs makes me skeptical.