Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

[Atamis]

Using just the skills and abilities available to us right now. This is what I would do to see SMN reach 6.0 where an actual rework could be done realistically.

Allow Devotion to be cast with Demi Pheonix and Bahamut out. - Currently this spell wiffs quiet often when trying to weave in enkindle and the assaults and leads to some of the "busy work" when getting ready to summon Phoenix as you stand there waiting until the egi decides it wants to cast the spell. If the Demis could cast it it would be less of an issue of timing everything if it could just be weaved between being summoned.

Remove damage penalty from spreading dots via Bane and increase the chance of resetting dots to 100% (including on the original target) - This directly increases damage (probably not on par with BLM by any means) and makes dot management easier on AoE pulls and allows us a quick way to refresh dots on single target fights. Skilled SMNs can possibly keep ruination spreading indefinably in a dungeon, and there would be zero excuses when bad SMNs let dots fall off.

Aetherflow given 3 stacks again. Energy Siphon usable out of combat to give you three charges, when used in combat it preforms its usual duty. Alternatively give it a long (4s) cast time and it gives you 3 aether every time its used and has no cooldown, allowing the SMN to stack up out of combat and gain aether during transitions. Cooldown independent from energy drain so it would not supersede drain during normal rotations. - This opens up aether usage to be far more reliable, allowing pre pull preperations, and makes downtime in fight feel like a boon.

Egi Assaults should instantly refresh when a new egi is summoned. - This allows titan to actually be used as a defensive cooldown when needed, and allows 4 stacks of ruination to be built back up during that downpahse after Pheonix and before Bahamut trance is back up.

Deathflareshould be guaranteed Direct Critical Hit - This is a damage increase obviously, but makes Bahamut trance feel good again, as that huge number was one of the perks to pulling it off pre ShB.

Demi-Bahamut should be rooted in place to ensure wyrmwaves go off, and the duration increased 5seconds so three Ahk Mourns can be used again.

Physick, scale this off INT or make its potency worthwhile - This is the only defensive thing we have when titan isn't out or has charges. Increase its mana cost to 2400 if you must to avoid people actually using it in a meaningful way, but for the love of Menphina make it do something.

This is all I feel would be necessary to get SMN back on track. No i don't like the current summoner, No i don't think it can be salvaged with the current toolset. but this is atleast attainable with what we have now.

[Mansion]

Aetherflow given 3 stacks again. Energy Siphon usable out of combat to give you three charges, when used in combat it preforms its usual duty. Alternatively give it a long (4s) cast time and it gives you 3 aether every time its used and has no cooldown, allowing the SMN to stack up out of combat and gain aether during transitions. Cooldown independent from energy drain so it would not supersede drain during normal rotations. - This opens up aether usage to be far more reliable, allowing pre pull preperations, and makes downtime in fight feel like a boon.

I think the point of shifting Aetherflow that way was to avoid the lengthy pre-pull requirement (for both SCH and SMN), and we all agree that is was a bit annoying to wait one minute before each pull.
Couldn't we work around that by simply deleting Energy Drain / Siphon, and just making Fester and Painflare oGCDs with charges? Because Aetherflow is just an old charge system somehow.It would take care of the rigid timer on Energy Drain, but keep the freedom of using Festers whenever you have time (and resources) to weave them, while making sure we don't lose uses.

Similarly, I'd make Earthen Armor an oGCD with a longer CD, because it's clunky as you need to make sure you have a charge, summon Titan, use it, hope for not too much delay, summon back Ifrit, cry on that lost Ruin IV.

I agree that Deathflare is almost incidental now. For me it's almost just used as a "thing to weave before Summon Bahamut".

Devotion is better than nothing, while quite underwhelming (and as you say, we can lock ourselves out of it in Bahamut / Phoenix moments). Would it be OP to have an added effect to Bahamut, similar to Everlasting Flight for our team ? (Something like 2% dmg or 5% crit up).

[Atamis]

I think the point of shifting Aetherflow that way was to avoid the lengthy pre-pull requirement (for both SCH and SMN), and we all agree that is was a bit annoying to wait one minute before each pull.
Couldn't we work around that by simply deleting Energy Drain / Siphon, and just making Fester and Painflare oGCDs with charges? Because Aetherflow is just an old charge system somehow.It would take care of the rigid timer on Energy Drain, but keep the freedom of using Festers whenever you have time (and resources) to weave them, while making sure we don't lose uses.

Aetherflow can't be deleted right now as its a core mechanic of how SMN currently works. Yes i would like it to disappear, but until 6.x this isn't likely to happen. That is why i said just make it usable out of combat to give stacks, no waiting for it to cooldown, just cast it and go.

[Taranok]

Aetherflow can't be deleted right now as its a core mechanic of how SMN currently works. Yes i would like it to disappear, but until 6.x this isn't likely to happen. That is why i said just make it usable out of combat to give stacks, no waiting for it to cooldown, just cast it and go.

Aetherflow isn't core to Summoner right now. It's core to the damage but the mechanic itself has no interaction with any other mechanic short of how it applies damage.

What makes it "core" is class lore combined with it being 1400 potency every minute, which could easily be shifted to other mechanics while Aetherflow itself was disabled.

What you want would make the class worse, you'd exacerbate every problem the class currently has. When the biggest complaint generally falls into the category of "There's too much to do and too many oGCDs to press," adding more oGCDs won't fix the issue.

I have a laundry list of "easy to implement" changes to SMN that I'd like to see, but the change to Aetherflow I want to see would be buffing Fester to 470 or so potency, buffing Painflare to 215 or so, increasing the charges to 3, removing energy drain and energy siphon, and making it so the trances themselves gave you 3 charges. This is a net-neutral change to the opener, considerably thins out the mid downtime phase where the class can't spare instant casts to throw out more festers, and will help with the flow issues because of that. The potency values are to try to align Fester to about 1400 potency/minute, and Painflare to about 640/minute. The damage will be very bursty, but over a long fight it should even out.

Going back to SB's solution won't fix anything, it's better to anchor the mechanic to trances and even though you won't be able to cast it during downtime, it will also never desync slaving it this way.

[Atamis]

I have a laundry list of "easy to implement" changes to SMN that I'd like to see,

Then feel free to share. That is the point of this thread. I for one only feel busy on SMN when forcing the Egis to do things, the whole aetherflow thing doesn't bother me. I say it is core because its the resource we have to use, yea its as pointless as MCH's battery guage, but it is a core mechanic even if you don't like it. they will not get rid of it without a rework, so once again its not feasible to just get rid of it right now. Nevermind if theres something forcing it to be linked with SCH as well.

[Taranok]

Not too sure why they added more DoT dependency on SMN in the first place. Nobody asked for SMN to be more DoT-focused at all, and SMN became less DoT dependent as expansions go, but ShB reversed that for some odd reason.
And to be honest I never understood the Raise tax. Revived players already get temporarily penalized for getting raised, so I don't understand why RDM and SMN should be permanently penalized for just having it.



If that's true, I find that pretty hilarious because BLMs before ShB were complaining about having no utilities and demanded they should have Raise, while MNKs were going through things about being inconvenient to play. Now that BLM and MNK are in a good spot (MNK arguably being busted) as the highest DPS jobs in the game, you'd think they'll support the DPS jobs who are struggling right now for going through the same thing before.

Funnily enough, I'm maining a Black Mage right now because of how massively disappointing and frustrating Summoner has been in ShB. BLM was a main of mine in SB and at the tail end of HW as well. I can't say for certain if BLM is OP, but it's a strong candidate for it. Meanwhile I'm a strong proponent for fixing SMN, fixing latency issues affecting DPS on MCH and NIN, and I want to give a massive overhaul to SMN and at least a minor rework to NIN because neither is in an especially good place right now design wise. And basically as I play every combat class to 50, I'm compiling a mental list of every issue I have with the class that I'd like to see smoothed over just to make it in my opinion more fun to play, and can make a laundry list of most classes where they could or should be improved.

Then feel free to share. That is the point of this thread. I for one only feel busy on SMN when forcing the Egis to do things, the whole aetherflow thing doesn't bother me. I say it is core because its the resource we have to use, yea its as pointless as MCH's battery guage, but it is a core mechanic even if you don't like it. they will not get rid of it without a rework, so once again its not feasible to just get rid of it right now. Nevermind if theres something forcing it to be linked with SCH as well.

I have in other threads and earlier in this one but, at risk of being redundant, here we go:

Short Term Changes. By definition, these are things that are relatively minor changes at a coding and class design level of the game that have examples of being done this way already either on this class or other classes, that can therefore be reasonably implemented quickly.

1. Reduce or remove the damage increase from DoTs being up on target for both Ruin and Fester (Ruin being the more important one).
2. Remove Energy Drain and Energy Siphon, give 3 stacks of Aetherflow from entering Trances, redistribute lost potency from ED/ES and Fester/Painflare into Ruin(s) and Outburst.
3. Remove ruination, redistribute lost damage directly into Ruin(s). Alternatively, allow Ruination to be cast by hardcasts of Miasma. Alternatively, allow Fountain of Fire and Brand of Purgatory to directly benefit from Ruination.
4. Increase DoT duration to 33-35 seconds. Alternatively reduce trance cooldown to 55 seconds. Alternatively reduce Tri-Disaster cooldown to 25 seconds or lower (Which would also double as a massive QoL improvement in more repeatable content including dungeons, especially if the cooldown is made something like 10s). If T-D is reduced in cooldown, take that into consideration for any ruination adjustments because that will be a bit redundant then.
5. Merge Demi-Bahamut with Dreadwyrm Trance, just likw how Demi-Phoenix and Firebrand Trance currently works. Remove Summon Demi-Bahamut as an ability, increase DWT duration to 20 seconds, and make the act of CASTING DWT require a target, which will automatically be hit by Death Flare on entering DWT. At level 70, make DB only summon every other DWT to keep consistency, whereas +5 seconds of free movement with no actual DPS gain should be minimal in all content at level 70 and prior.
6. Remove bane, make all DoTs/Ruination naturally spread just from being up on targets OR make all DoTs and T-D AoE to begin with. Notes: This might cause issues in some content where you flat out wouldn't want to AoE, such as the first boss of Tam-Tara Deepcroft Hard Mode, handle with care if done. Might not be necessary as the number of oGCDs decreases just from the AF Changes alone.
7. Merge Egi Assaults 1 and 2 together, adjust potency and procs accordingly, can keep 30s cooldown.
8. Make devotion cast by the summoner, centered on the summoner, and not interact with the pet in any way. Alternatively, let it be cast while a demi-summon is up,
9. Make all Demis stationary. Alternatively, make them operate like Machinist's Automaton Queen, fully autonomous outside of Enkindle Bahamut/Phoenix so they always do their full rotation and don't lose damage from shenanigans such as movement.
10. Merge Enkindle Bahamut/Phoenix with Enkindle, but keep them as separate abilities (shared button like the trances). They're mutually exclusive already, why not just combine them already since they "function" similarly?
11. Consider upgrading ruin 3 into ruin 4, and ruin 2 into ruin 3, change ruin 4 procs to be a damage increase and upgrade ruin 3 into ruin 4 as well, instant cast, etc.
12. Make Ifrit-Egi's auto attacks and egi-assaults charge the enemy like Automaton Queen does.

From doing all of this, there's basically only 2 or 3 oGCDs you will need to cast between phases. Tri-Disaster, Egi Assault, and Devotion. Everything else will be relegated to when Trances are up, but still heavily thinned out which will help the opener. The class will certainly get a bit repetitive during the downtime, but this is to make the class smooth and functional while not its best gameplay experience. Anything that says "consider" is something that doesn't need to be done, but I feel could be done and might be nice if done, but its impact is going to be a bit...weird. Obviously this will require potency changes, but since nothing is being added, only removed or merged, this is all reasonable with a relatively small amount of time.

Long term changes: By definition these would be things that would take a significant amount of effort and functionally require a redesign of the class, and as such would be expected no sooner than 6.0 if done.

1. Remove DoT maintenance gameplay, this class is no longer a poison mage, stop designing it like one.
2. Remove Egis as permanent pets, permanent pets are frustrating to design around and work with and aren't working with the current summoner.
3. Maybe remove Aetherflow, maybe not. If we add enough fun things outside of Aetherflow, it will be a redundant mechanic, kind of like how it is with Egi-Assault and the current Aetherflow rotation
4. Turn Egis and Carbuncles into "Arcanist's First Summons." Summoned when the class goes into a trance.
5. Make trances a primary part of the class rotation, comprising of easily half of Summoner's overall rotation. They can be 20 of 30 seconds of gameplay or 30 of 60 or some other arbitrary number, the more the better.
6. Give the class a lot of dummy abilities that do nothing or are somewhat basic outside of trances, but in trances they are augmented into unique, but simple abilities. Think how Enkindle Bahamut/Phoenix or EA 1/2 and Enkindle change depending on trance/egi. Use these abilities to make every trance feel very unique and wildly different from each other, themed to what is currently being summoned. Rotations can be 1 repeating like DWT but with a lot of oGCDs to push, can be 1-2 with fewer oGCDs, more complicated like 1-1-2-1-1-3-1-1 or 1-2-3-1-4-5-1-6. They can borrow from other classes, use DoTs, use oGCDs. The point is to vary the rotation to thematically fit which summon is out, and this should be what makes the summoner feel like a summoner.
7. Summoned entities can either use everything currently in existence, or new things. They can include Emerald Carbuncle, Topaz Carbuncle, possibly Ruby Carbuncle, a new Demi-Ifrit, Demi-Titan, Demi-Garuda, and eventually Demi-Bahamut and Demi-Phoenix, and any other new summons wanted.
8. All summoned entities should be entirely autonomous, but "impart" their power to the summoner. Exceptions can be made for ultraflashy abilities like Akh Morn or Revalation, but make those just automatically cast by the pet so that the pet is consistent.
9. Aim for 2-4 separate trances and rotations, and any early ones can upgrade into later ones with the rotation either not changing much or changing only marginally.
10. Keep abilities like Enkindle and Egi-Assault to be used when trances are or aren't up, but make them summon temporary pets, such as the carbuncles or current egis (not to be confused with E.G. Demi-Ifrit). They can be one-off attacks of random summons, or summon the pet. If it's a one-off attack, it can be flashy such as Odin running up and doing a Zantetsuken, whereas if it's a duration, it can be something smaller sticking around for longer.
11. Rework ability names, artwork, and potency to fit this massively reworked class, re-using old abilities where thematically appropriate.

That's really it. It's a tall order and I'm certainly not expecting these, but short term is mostly about making the class flow regardless of if it's boring at the end of the day while trying to maintain that this is a caster, whereas long-term is based on designing the class around what makes the class thematically feel like a summoner and reworking everything else to fit around it regardless of lore. Lore can be corrected later, but the class should play and feel like a summoner at the cost of everything else. With a proper redesign, the class will be thematically stable going forwards and will only need minor updates as time goes on, such as adding new summons to replace old ones. But it will at least be coherent and consistent.