Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

[NovaBismarck]

I'll repost Nemekh's Japanese to English translation here:
http://www.akhmorning.com/news/pll_53

I'll quote the English for brevity's sake:
"...currently the direction we are heading right now is that we are considering the option to extend the duration of DoTs right now but maybe it would work better to ease the job’s busyness by eliminating the aspect of Ruin’s dependancy on DoTs completely. It’s just…right now we are currently conducting test cases on which pattern should we apply for the job right now so we would like you to wait for a little until we finalize our decision."

I can at least speak up for casual players who try to maximize. Festerruins are not great in casual content. They do not feel great for a lot of varied content and there are so many reasons that dots can fall in pug groups that you cannot help and every time it is frustrating. Just a couple of examples: bosses that swap and cause dots to fall, phase changes, a tank who pulls, stops and pulls again, multiple critical deaths forcing the rotation pace to change. I suppose if damage was higher, maybe that'd help alleviate the problem a bit, but overall, I'd like to see damage elevated from some other source if it needs to be elevated because it still feels off. I'm sure there are ways to make the fester ruin issue work better, but in it's current state it's unpleasant.

[Dyvid]

Can we be real though. What changed from 4.0 to 5.0 that is causing a these huge problems? DoTs are basically the same, ruin had a potency lowered but then added the potency increase with DoTs, Bahamut doesn't respond to action but comes out more frequently, we got FBT/Phoenix, Garuda and Ifrit have a clear role, and Egi Assault proc ruin IV all the time rather than 15%. Bosses mechanics haven't changed Dungeons haven't changed. People doing Savage and Extreme are really the ones having issues with timing and flow but for me and my casually stuff, I'm having minimal problem outside of learning fight and PUG learning fights.

[Sequora]

Can we be real though. What changed from 4.0 to 5.0 that is causing a these huge problems? DoTs are basically the same, ruin had a potency lowered but then added the potency increase with DoTs, Bahamut doesn't respond to action but comes out more frequently, we got FBT/Phoenix, Garuda and Ifrit have a clear role, and Egi Assault proc ruin IV all the time rather than 15%. Bosses mechanics haven't changed Dungeons haven't changed. People doing Savage and Extreme are really the ones having issues with timing and flow but for me and my casually stuff, I'm having minimal problem outside of learning fight and PUG learning fights.

It’s egi assault. Yes we get 4 ruin IVs, but we have to push a button to get it. We’re also refilling our Aetherflow 2 times a minute. It’s just the sheer number of oGCDs we have now.

[Myon88]

Can we be real though. What changed from 4.0 to 5.0 that is causing a these huge problems? DoTs are basically the same, ruin had a potency lowered but then added the potency increase with DoTs, Bahamut doesn't respond to action but comes out more frequently, we got FBT/Phoenix, Garuda and Ifrit have a clear role, and Egi Assault proc ruin IV all the time rather than 15%. Bosses mechanics haven't changed Dungeons haven't changed.

There are a lot of tangential factors that affect the dps output of a job, and these can exacerbate an already bad situation making it even worse than SE's intended tuning (like now). Which is not to say that SE has tuned the job right in the first place, but it's making things even worse.

Consider the fact that energy drain and trances will lose usages over the course of a fight due to the inability to carry over their usages/cds through downtime. This already happens on e1s with high raid dps, as well as instances like e3s' maelstrom jumps, or e4s' long transition. An aetherflow-centric kit did not have this problem and this is something experienced summoners have warned about ever since the media tour. If you lose a demi summon because of poor fight timing, that's 2000 potency down the drain - 2000 potency that could've made summoner look better relative to other jobs.

SE probably models job performance as a simple full-uptime dummy situation, so any deviation an actual fight brings is just left to the flexibility of the job's toolkit to cope with, as an emergent factor. So, a weak toolkit that can't cope well will therefore tend to perform below spec in practice due to all this clunk coming into play.

Contrast this with a job like BLM that received nothing but extremely potent and relevant gameplay tweaks. Xenoglossy and 30s sharpcast ensure that even in the most difficult fights in the game, they never actually have to stop casting if played well - the one weakness casters (especially blm) are meant to be balanced around. Polyglot continues building during downtime, while umbral soul lets you use that same downtime to generate resources and prep a stronger burst when combat restarts.

Relevant changes like these conversely ensure that BLM will tend to perform above spec and very close to the ideal vision of the job. It's subtle things like this that can cause massive swings in real world performance even if SE intends certain jobs to perform equally on paper.

People doing Savage and Extreme are really the ones having issues with timing and flow but for me and my casually stuff, I'm having minimal problem outside of learning fight and PUG learning fights.

Good for you, but it's important that the game is balanced around difficult content and the assumption that jobs are being played properly. I mean, I could try my hand at ninja or samurai and I'm sure it'd be pretty fun. I know nothing about those jobs, ignorance is bliss after all, but it also means my opinion on those jobs shouldn't be weighed as heavily as the people who actually understand the job.

[dinnertime]

Can we be real though. What changed from 4.0 to 5.0 that is causing a these huge problems? DoTs are basically the same, ruin had a potency lowered but then added the potency increase with DoTs, Bahamut doesn't respond to action but comes out more frequently, we got FBT/Phoenix, Garuda and Ifrit have a clear role, and Egi Assault proc ruin IV all the time rather than 15%. Bosses mechanics haven't changed Dungeons haven't changed. People doing Savage and Extreme are really the ones having issues with timing and flow but for me and my casually stuff, I'm having minimal problem outside of learning fight and PUG learning fights.

As a casual player, it's hard to ignore the problems everyone has pointed out. I think most of SMN's problems come from inconsistencies and annoyances the rework has done. I'm going to parrot my own thoughs:
-Festerruins are super annoying because there are moments DoTs fall off when the enemy is about to die, or when bosses switch around/disappear then reappear etc. It makes the job unnecessarily punishing than it should be
-I do notice the timing issues and the inevitable DoT falloffs because of the rigid CD of Trances. That wasn't much of a problem with the old Aetherflow system though
-I liked the old Aetherflow system even though it had problems. It makes SMN strategic with how you can plan out your DWTs and wouldn't cause DPS loss if done right. Now SMN is just "mash everything immediately when they're on cd" or it's a DPS loss.
-Speaking of Aetherflow, Energy Drain/Energy Siphon is annoying because you need a target to get Aetherflow stacks and they can only be used in combat. Also I hate how frequent I need to press them, it's unnecessary.
-We lost mobility because we only enter DWT once per cycle instead of 2. The 2nd DWT is now Bahamut and we also get Phoenix, but it's ideal for me to be rooted in place or else their auto attack commands might get ignored
-To add to the mobility problem, the differences in Ruin II and Ruin III's potencies are slightly higher which isn't the biggest deal for me but still annoying.
-I'm a player that doesn't care about min-maxing Egi's so I keep them on Sic. We lost that option for Egi Assaults and they just feel bad to use in general. I wouldn't mind them too much if they were stronger but less frequent.
-Speaking of Egi's, they're too weak now and Egi Assault commands are more prone to getting erased unlike before.
-Devotion is 180 instead of 120 and doesn't align with Phoenix.

There's probably more but that's what comes to mind right now.

[Dyvid]

It’s egi assault. Yes we get 4 ruin IVs, but we have to push a button to get it. We’re also refilling our Aetherflow 2 times a minute. It’s just the sheer number of oGCDs we have now.

How is this effecting DoT drop off or mobility? Boss during transition. The things being complained about now are things the jobs has dealt with since creation.

Good for you, but it's important that the game is balanced around difficult content and the assumption that jobs are being played properly. I mean, I could try my hand at ninja or samurai and I'm sure it'd be pretty fun. I know nothing about those jobs, ignorance is bliss after all, but it also means my opinion on those jobs shouldn't be weighed as heavily as the people who actually understand the job.

And assumptions because I don't even do Savage but I can read the problems they are having and understand the issues. I'm responding to casual players like myself who are having issues with normal aspects of the job. The aspects that didn't change for the worse but for the better. Would it be better for R3 to just go back to 130 potency with no DoT buff? 15% ruin IV proc chance? Everyone is focusing so much on the negative aspects of the job they gloss over the positive changes. They look at the boards and say well BLM and RDM are doing this and that, but seem to have forget the point of playing a job is because you enjoying playing the job. Skill improves are you continually run the content and learn the patterns, always has and always will.

[Myon88]

You asked what was causing these problems even though the job appears to function the same on a surface level, I told you my answer. But let me address your concerns more directly,

DoTs are basically the same

They got 10 potency weaker than in Stormblood. Also tying dots to the ruin damage bonus makes it a lot more painful and obvious when you use them badly.

ruin had a potency lowered but then added the potency increase with DoTs

So you basically have to do more busywork just to get the same result. In the big picture, it doesn't matter whether ruin3 does 130 or 200 potency, because the jobs overall damage will be tuned to accomodate that number. It was 130 in Stormblood if I recall, and that was when the job was the best it ever was. The actual number is irrelevant, bad gameplay is forever.

Bahamut doesn't respond to action but comes out more frequently

Nice but they are qualitatively different things. It's like if you gave my car square shaped wheels so it feels terrible to drive, but you also gave me free petrol so I could drive it more often. Thanks, I guess?

Garuda and Ifrit have a clear role

They did in Stormblood too, but I'll grant you it is clearer now. But can we talk about how egi assaults are basically 50 potency ogcds? If they did 500 potency I don't think as many people would be complaining about the rotation being busy, the issue is the work doesn't justify the payoff. The change from 'sic' to egi assaults is a big one too. Under the old system they basically did all the attacking on their own, so even if they were weak you didn't really see it yourself cause it was like their autoattacks, something that happened passively. Now every time you hit egi assault you know it's you going out of your way to hit a button, and getting 50 potency for your efforts, it's like rubbing it in your face.

Egi Assault proc ruin IV all the time rather than 15%.

If you math it out the number of expected ruin 4s you get per minute is more or less the same. If anything we get too little ruin4 procs. It's silly to have a 4-stack charge limit except you never ever hit that limit after the opener in normal gameplay, why even have it then? If we had random ruin4 procs on top of this new egi assault > ruin4 system, that would at least provide enough procs you would have to monitor your stack carefully so as not to overcap. At least there would be some kind of gameplay associated with it then, rather than now where they just exist.

[Sequora]

I wish they would add back the 15% procs for ruin IV for when our egis use their auto abilities. That way we’re guaranteed to have ruin IV for any situation including movement, while not being able to exclusively spam it. They could even lower it to 10%.

[CecMiller]

I think Ruin 4 RNG mechanics would have been nice in addition to guaranteed generation from Egi Assaults (though I believe Egi Assaults should be changed in general). It makes managing up to 4 Ruin 4 stacks more interesting as the only way to really cap Ruin 4 stacks outside the opener is somehow not using a single ruin 2 for a full 30s after having previously used 2x Egi Assaults. These times are few and far between as generally speaking there are mechanics that force you to move and force usages as well as obtaining maximum wyrmwaves via bahamaut inolves using at least 4 instant casts.

[CecMiller]

I just wanted to touch upon the DPS capability of SMN in general as I don't think I talk about this too much.

Right now, both RDM and SMN are too low with respect to BLM. In fact, a lot of classes seem to be very close to each other but there are stand out jobs like DRG, MNK and BLM and SAM lagging slightly behind where as the others are a bit more closely matched. I'm certain SMN needs changes and with those changes, hopefully its DPS is brought up. But at the same time, the gap the top 3 (with SAM joining them if buffed) have over the other jobs is pretty mindboggling even when BLM is considered to be a purely DPS class, its ADPS should be higher but not its RDPS. RDPS ideally should be equal with a slight preferrence to utility classes. This is because they require good execution from everyone in the party to utilize their kit in these buff windows. Furthermore, the jobs with these utilities are always weaker in content that is solo or 4 man or anything less than 8 man content where as the "pure dps" jobs are always stronger in these areas. When these tools are not utilized optimally, their rdps would be lower and as such, when used at their maximum benefit, they should eclipse those "pure dps" jobs in terms of raid dps contribution via their own personal dps + the dps their utility has provided.

I would also note that ressurection does not provide ANY dps utility at a high level. However, their benefit is clear in pug groups when deaths are more common. The current state of balance is significantly worse than patch 4.5. If both RDM and SMN are being taxed for ressurection, then its better off removed entirely from both jobs as it creates an unequal balancing environment - I would personally already prefer this.

An example of patch 4.5 with the fastest speedkill in Final Omega:

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/x6ajk...pe=damage-done

SMN had contagion here (10% Magic Debuff every 60s for 15s). However it hits only 4 people: BLM, AST, SCH and PLD (If holy spirits are aligned) in this group (discounting the SMN as its contribution to their DPS is part of their personal DPS). Further, devotion was 2% as opposed to 5% so its contribution was a lot lower.

Evyerthing considered, the gap was certainly not made up by these buffs alone (almost 1.6k dps) and I very much think they would be very close but I cannot see that anymore as the website I used has been discontinued. Discounting the buffs from BRD, DRG, AST (BLM got 2 extra balances), SCH from both jobs personal dps and adding contagion and devotion to SMN would certainly mean their raid dps contribution was a lot closer.

Monk provided both mantra and brotherhood which is an incredibly strong buff on a low cooldown and physical only for whatever reason when there no longer exists magical buffs. Dragoon provides both crazy personal dps and battle litany and dragon sight.

Where I'm going with this is that SMN should have a similar placing to Monk if not higher when everything is balanced. Previously, the rankings in 4.5 would go BLM, SAM, MNK/SMN interchangeable and I think this was a good spot. Right now, it should go BLM, SAM, MCH, MNK/SMN, DRG/RDM/BRD, NIN/DNC in terms of personal dps contribution. However, I don't think this is close to being true at the moment - DRG's placement is the only one I'm actually unsure about.

RDPS lists should be much closer but it goes without saying that the jobs closer to the bottom in terms of personal dps should be higher on this list due to my reasons above. It is also worth noting that I only believe these difference should be evident at the very highest levels of play. The lower the level of play, the worse utility jobs should arguably be and the stronger pure dps jobs should be. I.e. NIN/DNC, DRG/BRD/RDM, MNK/SMN etc The problem then arrises in the dps discrepency between MCH, BLM and SAM where MCH would be lower in rdps purely because it is mobile. Its worth acknowledging that hard casting is harder than being mobile. As a result, the top percentiles should see this difference and hopefully its more balanced when player skill is a bit worse. We should ideally only see these rankings at the top level. To those that think that pure dps jobs should be at the top of both lists - what would be the point of bringing jobs that provide dps utility on top of their personal dps in that case? Why not just bring BLM/SAM/MNK and one last job that buffs them everytime? That is why there needs to be this difference in raid dps contribution where the jobs with dps utility are stronger than the pure dps jobs at the highest level.