Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

[HanenJS]

I really liked the summoner class. DoTs + Pets made it a fun solo adventure. I never liked the changes that came after 2.x. I was hoping they would expand the summoning list, which they sort of did, and add even more DoTs to help with overall DPS. It was always fun to see HUGE dots just draining the life away from these monsters. but now... I love the BIRD. also, FFlogs, you might want to consider how many of that information also includes dancer mechanics. I've Rarely been a target for dancing partner when there is a blm around, but i've seen my dps hit near 12-14k with dancers.

[Siete]

I really liked the summoner class. DoTs + Pets made it a fun solo adventure. I never liked the changes that came after 2.x. I was hoping they would expand the summoning list, which they sort of did, and add even more DoTs to help with overall DPS. It was always fun to see HUGE dots just draining the life away from these monsters. but now... I love the BIRD.

Huge dots? They sort of hit for nothing.

[Taranok]

it's the opposite the only way to increase the ruin dmg was to make them scale from dots. they didn't give a third dot in ruination for nothing

Or, you know, remove the DoTs from the class, make fester just always hit for 400 (if we were keeping fester at this point), and make ruin come in swinging for 270, since 70 potency happens to be the potency damage of the DoTs if you average it over 12 GCDs. Granted this is conveniently ignoring the various phase changes or even hard casting of DoTs mechanics that would need to see other spells also raised. There is no mechanic that requires having DoTs that needs to stay that way, otherwise classes like Machinist literally could not exist. The devs made a conscious choice to keep the DoTs instead of expunging them. And don't get me started on how godawful Ruination is to the current SMN rotation. 75% uptime, but 20 seconds of that is GUARANTEED to happen during a section where you gain no benefit from it, and there is no practical way to realistically mitigate that without heavy amounts of micro and perfect timing to delay when you recast it, which costs more damage anyways since you'd have to cast more normal DoTs to keep everything lined up.

I don't mind DoTs on SMN because it's what gives the job more consistent damage and mobility but I just find it annoying how 5.0 SMN revolves around it more than ever with Ruin working like Fester. It's very, very annoying and should be reverted back into raw damage.

Also I do feel DoT management is pretty annoying now because I find myself actually waiting a few seconds after my DoTs expired at certain points so I can use Tri-Disaster on CD, and this wasn't really a problem before. Personally I wish we had a more reliable way to refresh DoTs like Bard does. Also they should just add Ruination into Bio already.

I'd just like to point out that there is absolutely nothing about DoTs being on the class that makes the class innately more, or less, mobile. The only things that affect mobility are range and whether you have cast times or not. Ranged DPS are innately more mobile than melee because if a boss zones out melee, they lose a lot of damage while the rDPS just ignores the boss movement. Casters are innately the least mobile, but SMN used to be the most mobile because it would cost them 20 potency to instant cast, they had 15s of guaranteed mobility every minute, and a further 20 seconds of optimized mobility every 2 minutes. That has since been taken away which is why the class feels so much less mobile, especially because SMNs cannot let the DoTs lapse anymore or they lose substantially more damage.

[HeulGDarian]

Or, you know, remove the DoTs from the class, make fester just always hit for 400 (if we were keeping fester at this point), and make ruin come in swinging for 270, since 70 potency happens to be the potency damage of the DoTs if you average it over 12 GCDs. Granted this is conveniently ignoring the various phase changes or even hard casting of DoTs mechanics that would need to see other spells also raised. There is no mechanic that requires having DoTs that needs to stay that way, otherwise classes like Machinist literally could not exist. The devs made a conscious choice to keep the DoTs instead of expunging them. And don't get me started on how godawful Ruination is to the current SMN rotation. 75% uptime, but 20 seconds of that is GUARANTEED to happen during a section where you gain no benefit from it, and there is no practical way to realistically mitigate that without heavy amounts of micro and perfect timing to delay when you recast it, which costs more damage anyways since you'd have to cast more normal DoTs to keep everything lined up.



I'd just like to point out that there is absolutely nothing about DoTs being on the class that makes the class innately more, or less, mobile. The only things that affect mobility are range and whether you have cast times or not. Ranged DPS are innately more mobile than melee because if a boss zones out melee, they lose a lot of damage while the rDPS just ignores the boss movement. Casters are innately the least mobile, but SMN used to be the most mobile because it would cost them 20 potency to instant cast, they had 15s of guaranteed mobility every minute, and a further 20 seconds of optimized mobility every 2 minutes. That has since been taken away which is why the class feels so much less mobile, especially because SMNs cannot let the DoTs lapse anymore or they lose substantially more damage.

Well me from last night i am sorry i can't listen to your advice and not care about summoner discussion .

Ok here is the big flow of your genious idea. That assuming you keep casting on that target,So on aoe you Don't get the damage. ok i say we can put it to overburst , there are times where the mobs are split or away from the boss. Congratulations you're the owner of the second coming of ruinfesters. alot of stuff Don't work currently not just ruination we need fixing not limb removal.

[Taranok]

Well me from last night i am sorry i can't listen to your advice and not care about summoner discussion .

Ok here is the big flow of your genious idea. That assuming you keep casting on that target,So on aoe you Don't get the damage. ok i say we can put it to overburst , there are times where the mobs are split or away from the boss. Congratulations you're the owner of the second coming of ruinfesters. alot of stuff Don't work currently not just ruination we need fixing not limb removal.

Yes, because we remove dots and ruination in a vacuum instead of altering the entire class to allow for such a sweeping change.

Did you even think through your comment?

[HeulGDarian]

Yes, because we remove dots and ruination in a vacuum instead of altering the entire class to allow for such a sweeping change.

Did you even think through your comment?

so that would only work if you reworked the whole class? You would have to spend more stuff in order to make that better than the dots and you think that's a good idea?

[Taranok]

so that would only work if you reworked the whole class? You would have to spend more stuff in order to make that better than the dots and you think that's a good idea?

Unfortunately, that's actually what the class needs, so yes. The DoTs actually detract from the playstyle of the class at this point, both directly and indireclty. Ruination actively hurts SMN's design and with how tight the timings are, if you cast DoTs even a second too soon with TD, you will lose it the damage bonus for 1-2 GCDs.

It is a classic example of something that sounds good on paper but in practice flat out doesn't work right.

And if we're going to start deleting mechanics, other things have to be brought up OR ADDED. So if you remove Ruination, you need to add 20 potency to every ruin spell at a 50-75% rate to maintain damage neutrality. If you remove DoTs, that's about 70 as well over every GCD on average. You can't just rip one thing out without everything being affected, and that's a lazier way of doing it where it's not actually a rework.

[dinnertime]

I'd just like to point out that there is absolutely nothing about DoTs being on the class that makes the class innately more, or less, mobile. The only things that affect mobility are range and whether you have cast times or not. Ranged DPS are innately more mobile than melee because if a boss zones out melee, they lose a lot of damage while the rDPS just ignores the boss movement. Casters are innately the least mobile, but SMN used to be the most mobile because it would cost them 20 potency to instant cast, they had 15s of guaranteed mobility every minute, and a further 20 seconds of optimized mobility every 2 minutes. That has since been taken away which is why the class feels so much less mobile, especially because SMNs cannot let the DoTs lapse anymore or they lose substantially more damage.

The reason why SMN is (or was now) considered mobile than BLM especially around 2.x and 3.x days was because SMN's main form of damage came from abilities that can damage enemies on their own, which were DoTs and the Egi's (which are basically glorified DoTs, too). Along with Ruin 2 not being too punishing to use. I'll clarify it now that it doesn't directly give SMN mobility but it contributes to it since SMN doesn't have to worry too much about damage falloff while moving around because of them, but now that there's more things to SMN's kit and with DoTs and Egi damage being cut down for these new things, it's not a significant of a contribution like before.

[HeulGDarian]

The reason why SMN is (or was now) considered mobile than BLM especially around 2.x and 3.x days was because SMN's main form of damage came from abilities that can damage enemies on their own, which were DoTs and the Egi's (which are basically glorified DoTs, too). Along with Ruin 2 not being too punishing to use. I'll clarify it now that it doesn't directly give SMN mobility but it contributes to it since SMN doesn't have to worry too much about damage falloff while moving around because of them, but now that there's more things to SMN's kit and with DoTs and Egi damage being cut down for these new things, it's not a significant of a contribution like before.

Honestly Yoshi p said that they wanted to fix some rotation problems and make him more summoner like by having you swap pets around more often. As always they tried to make everyone happy with this even though it backfired so much. Though it backfired not for what it is but for trying to become what isn't. Most of the problems are numbers like cooldown of the dots or devotion and the damage numbers of the ruins and the egis , The fester ruins being a combination of both . The biggest problem though is the aetherflow and trance change making us lose most of our flexibility. Trying to remove or in this case touch the core of the job is like trying to remove your own intestines but it's not like it wasn't asked by some people . I'm pretty sure that if people didn't keep saying summoner isn't a summoner cause of the arcanist line so remove it , THIS wouldn't have happened . this is why I'm frustrated how people after seeing them touch the core and now the job is worse insist on asking change it even more . Obviously this is just 2 parties yanking a rope between them without being able to come to terms. and i can't really talk about it since I'm favouring one side much more than the other, not without reason ofc . This is worse than 4.0 where most people jumped ship from summoner to rdm.