Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

[CecMiller]

The logs for SMN's rdps only gets lower the worse you go based on initial clears:

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=68&dataset=50

It's important to note that these are week 1 clears and so a small swing in dps will result in large percentile differences (and its why 50th percentile bracket is not a bad choice) - For the most part however, those who are hardcore savage raiders clear the fights in week 1 and it is telling that SMN is pretty low at all percentiles on the final fight. Summoner is bottom 3 regardless of which percentile you pick.

Infact, 30th percentile and below it is the worst job for rdps at this time. There are a multitude of reasons for this and these stats are not necessarily a true depiction of how things stand as some jobs may have had gear prioritized more than others and there is a lot of luck associated who won gear on earlier floors which could bring the average up. What is telling is that RDM is higher at all percentiles. RDM clearly does not need nerfs however (if anything, it deserves more buffs). It's just telling how weak SMN is at this current time due to the current design iteration of the job and its reduced flexibility, rigid mobility timings, fester ruins and how much downtime can punish you.

The job is in a bad spot and I would very much like our cycle based on Aetherflow again as it was a great system and very underappreciated. You did not need the Aetherflow lockouts in trance either as you could simply have DWT or FBT activatable as soon as you refreshed Aetherflow meaning you could use said stacks inside DWT/FBT. Further, to distinguish DWT/FBT setup in this way, you could rename the Aetherflow mechanic to Energy Drain which makes DWT activatable on refresh and Energy Drain upgrades to Energy Siphon after you have already used Energy Drain and it is on cooldown or DWT ending which signifies that the next trance available will be FBT and so on. It would have been a very nice and straight forward improvement on the old 4.1 system. Instead we have this more rigid system which has many faults.

[Dyvid]

The logs for SMN's rdps only gets lower the worse you go based on initial clears:

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=68&dataset=50

It's important to note that these are week 1 clears and so a small swing in dps will result in large percentile differences (and its why 50th percentile bracket is not a bad choice) - For the most part however, those who are hardcore savage raiders clear the fights in week 1 and it is telling that SMN is pretty low at all percentiles on the final fight. Summoner is bottom 3 regardless of which percentile you pick.

Infact, 30th percentile and below it is the worst job for rdps at this time. There are a multitude of reasons for this and these stats are not necessarily a true depiction of how things stand as some jobs may have had gear prioritized more than others and there is a lot of luck associated who won gear on earlier floors which could bring the average up. What is telling is that RDM is higher at all percentiles. RDM clearly does not need nerfs however (if anything, it deserves more buffs). It's just telling how weak SMN is at this current time due to the current design iteration of the job and its reduced flexibility, rigid mobility timings, fester ruins and how much downtime can punish you.

The job is in a bad spot and I would very much like our cycle based on Aetherflow again as it was a great system and very underappreciated. You did not need the Aetherflow lockouts in trance either as you could simply have DWT or FBT activatable as soon as you refreshed Aetherflow meaning you could use said stacks inside DWT/FBT. Further, to distinguish DWT/FBT setup in this way, you could rename the Aetherflow mechanic to Energy Drain which makes DWT activatable on refresh and Energy Drain upgrades to Energy Siphon after you have already used Energy Drain and it is on cooldown or DWT ending which signifies that the next trance available will be FBT and so on. It would have been a very nice and straight forward improvement on the old 4.1 system. Instead we have this more rigid system which has many faults.

While we don't disagree that SMN mechanics need work I'm just curious why you are focusing on Titan rather than the entire Eden Savage set?

[HeulGDarian]

the plan of reworking failed we either learn from our failures or we will keep repeating them. Personally i think stormblood is the best iteration the summoner ever had and 5.0 brought the changed actions and the devotion on entrance in demi summoning this is where we should head these were the good ideas ,we don't need to build upon the bad foundation that is energydrain and newtrance nor do we need to remove old stuff to forcefully rework this job.

let me quote Dyvid from another post he said it best "find a job you actually enjoy rather than the one you want to enjoy"
lots of people like what summoner brought in 4.1 and we wanted to see it expand on that . Imagine our disappointment when it got reworked . Smn doesn't need to become easier Smn doesn't need to have his dots removed Smn doesn't need to get 1 attack animation summons honestly that is a disgrace to the smn and the summon like having the egi actions without the egis. Smn doesn't need to be removed from arcanist or scholar . Devs want it to be removed cause it makes their job easier on that front but they have shown that there is no problem . many like what summoner can be but did anyone like what smn actually is? the 5.0 smn is the devs listening to everyone in theory that was what people wanted .

[Vulcwen]

The logs for SMN's rdps only gets lower the worse you go based on initial clears:

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=68&dataset=50
(...)

It would indicate that SMN is in a bad spot for progression due to it's difficulty, but I don't like basing conclusions off a sample size of 100.
That said, I noticed that the bottom 6 dps are actually really close, there is some really good balance there. The problem is that 3 melee jobs and BLM are really far ahead of everyone else. This means the base comp would be BLM, MNK, DRG, and then you have SAM (has enough dps to compensate not bringing a ranged), all ranged dps (brings a 1% party buff) and SMN/RDM competing for the 4th spot. The only reason to bring a SMN or RDM is for raise in prog, so SMN being hard in progression would indeed be a problem.

[Dyvid]

It would indicate that SMN is in a bad spot for progression due to it's difficulty, but I don't like basing conclusions off a sample size of 100.
That said, I noticed that the bottom 6 dps are actually really close, there is some really good balance there. The problem is that 3 melee jobs and BLM are really far ahead of everyone else. This means the base comp would be BLM, MNK, DRG, and then you have SAM (has enough dps to compensate not bringing a ranged), all ranged dps (brings a 1% party buff) and SMN/RDM competing for the 4th spot. The only reason to bring a SMN or RDM is for raise in prog, so SMN being hard in progression would indeed be a problem.

Honestly I'm shocked on how well DRG and MNK are doing over the "selfish DPS" like BLM, SAM, and MCH. It's clear to see 5.1 is going to rebalance some of the jobs.

[NovaBismarck]

The logs for SMN's rdps only gets lower the worse you go based on initial clears:

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=68&dataset=50

It's important to note that these are week 1 clears and so a small swing in dps will result in large percentile differences (and its why 50th percentile bracket is not a bad choice) - For the most part however, those who are hardcore savage raiders clear the fights in week 1 and it is telling that SMN is pretty low at all percentiles on the final fight. Summoner is bottom 3 regardless of which percentile you pick.

Infact, 30th percentile and below it is the worst job for rdps at this time. There are a multitude of reasons for this and these stats are not necessarily a true depiction of how things stand as some jobs may have had gear prioritized more than others and there is a lot of luck associated who won gear on earlier floors which could bring the average up. What is telling is that RDM is higher at all percentiles. RDM clearly does not need nerfs however (if anything, it deserves more buffs). It's just telling how weak SMN is at this current time due to the current design iteration of the job and its reduced flexibility, rigid mobility timings, fester ruins and how much downtime can punish you.

The job is in a bad spot and I would very much like our cycle based on Aetherflow again as it was a great system and very underappreciated. You did not need the Aetherflow lockouts in trance either as you could simply have DWT or FBT activatable as soon as you refreshed Aetherflow meaning you could use said stacks inside DWT/FBT. Further, to distinguish DWT/FBT setup in this way, you could rename the Aetherflow mechanic to Energy Drain which makes DWT activatable on refresh and Energy Drain upgrades to Energy Siphon after you have already used Energy Drain and it is on cooldown or DWT ending which signifies that the next trance available will be FBT and so on. It would have been a very nice and straight forward improvement on the old 4.1 system. Instead we have this more rigid system which has many faults.

You are spot on. Ty.