Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

[Angry_Evil]

I want them to make bahamut more like it was in SB - basically weaving to get more WV etc. but give it unique skills like phoenix have. Then we'll have 3 mechanics DWT>DB>FBT with unique things in each. All this new r4 measuring is just meh...

[CecMiller]

I want them to make bahamut more like it was in SB - basically weaving to get more WV etc. but give it unique skills like phoenix have. Then we'll have 3 mechanics DWT>DB>FBT with unique things in each. All this new r4 measuring is just meh...

I thought about this too!

How cool would it be if Bahamut, instead of wyrmwaves, used Flare Breath from Ucob:

https://youtu.be/LupAOwPA7yA?t=1554

Or Flatten for single target. I'm sad they removed the ogcd interaction but I would have loved some new abilities for bahamut to compensate.

[Dyvid]

Snip

So I mention AoE specifically because you specifically made it a point to post FFLog data related to that. Think about what is going on right now on SE's side. The mods are pouring over the thread right now up channeling our discussions. What we don't want is some dumb change like, "Oh they think AoE is weak, lets just buff outburst and everything will be okay." I know and you know this isn't going to fix any of the problems. My suggest to you would be compile your thoughts, decide on specific problems you are seeing, then give specific ideas on how to fix them.

As for Aetherflow, Summoner isn't the only job that got hit with this pre-pull nerf. I've been trying MCH out and learned you can't charge their battery gauge or heat gauge unless in combat. Though I can't confirm due to lack of experience but I can assume a lot of the jobs were hit with this but SCH are talking about it too as well as AST. Knowing this is a hard stance by SE, what would you suggest as a work around for AF? I've mentioned before about granting a full 4 stack with ED every 60s. Another option would give ED/ES a build up of two stacked charges. As for Trances, I can see a ladder that builds up to Demi-Phoenix; DWT changes to DWT+Bahamut that changes to FBT+Phoenix. Or another option would be DWT unlocks FBT+Phoenix and Bahamut is still separate letting you call him whenever you need. It gives you more freedom but would be a less clear rotation.

[CecMiller]

So I mention AoE specifically because you specifically made it a point to post FFLog data related to that. Think about what is going on right now on SE's side. The mods are pouring over the thread right now up channeling our discussions. What we don't want is some dumb change like, "Oh they think AoE is weak, lets just buff outburst and everything will be okay." I know and you know this isn't going to fix any of the problems.

You are mistaken in thinking that by mentioning simply AOE and the stats for AOE that they would only consider the AOE capabilities of our class when both the JP side and English side have been more than vocal about what our problems are. Furthermore, I am sure they are not waiting for us to post our stats when they can have a good look at what things are like from their end. The stats I posted were more for the other players of this job and others ffxiv players to understand that SMN isn't in the best place even outside of discussing mechanical changes which requires some knowledge about the job itself.

Thee main focus of the entire thread has been to discuss the mechanics that are hindering our job and, in so doing, discuss how we can fix these issues which impacts both single target and AOE. Further, I already posted our single target data in the comment discussing AOE proceeding that post. Not sure if you saw. If the conclusion they draw from reading my opening post and the proceeding comments is to buff outburst - that is entirely on their own inpetitude in understanding the job. This is why I, in addition to discussing the problems of single target, discuss the problems with AOE aswell as it is always worth highlighting.

Thankyou for your suggestion to compile my thoughts and decide on specific problems I'm seeing and give specific ideas on how to fix them. I think you'll find my opening post does exactly that.

As for Aetherflow, Summoner isn't the only job that got hit with this pre-pull nerf. I've been trying MCH out and learned you can't charge their battery gauge or heat gauge unless in combat. Though I can't confirm due to lack of experience but I can assume a lot of the jobs were hit with this but SCH are talking about it too as well as AST. Knowing this is a hard stance by SE, what would you suggest as a work around for AF?

My main solution was already given, but I will quote it again. This can be modified and expanded on pretty easily. The problem stems from the "must be in combat tag" associated with aetherflow and so dungeons will naturally feel worse unless they give us charges to go along with it.

Alternatively (assuming Aetherflow is back to its original state/60s), simply pressing the button could make the Trances "Active" instead of having to spend the stacks to activate DWT etc


Example:

1. Aetherflow (on use aka just to gain the stacks) gives us access to DWT aka button lights up and can be used whenever.(Can spend stacks inside).
Further, the next Aetherflow becomes "Enhanced" after DWT ends for its next use. This means we can use DWT however we want for the next 60s.
2. DWT gives us access to Bahamut as before.
3. Enhanced Aetherflow (on use aka just to gain the stacks) gives us access to FBT aka button lights up and can be used whenever. (You can spend stacks inside FBT).
Note: Enhanced AF cannot be used until you have used DWT as state prior. This avoids conflicting situations.
4. Aetherflow returns to normal for next use aka it would grant DWT again on refresh after FBT has ended.

We can be funny and call normal "Aetherflow" Energy Drain and "Enhanced Aetherflow" Energy Siphon. In effect, ending DWT upgrades Energy Drain to Energy Siphon whilst FBT ending changes Energy Siphon to Energy Drain. Also, I'd hope we can use both Energy Drain/Energy Siphon without a target in combat and preferablly between trash pulls in a dungeon if at all possible.

This avoids the aetherflow lockout in trances as was the case in 4.0+. You could also use the "enhanced" Aetherflow stacks inside bahamut as all it does is change DWT icon to FBT icon on use. Just be aware that the enkindles share times between the summons. I see no downside to this.

While true a few jobs did get hit in that department, several other jobs still require some pre-pull setup and, as I recall, the whole goal was to reduce the wait time for parties who raided and had a SMN/SCH party member. There is always going to be a pre-pull wait time regardless due to some jobs having pre-pull buffs they need to take care of. They could always add "cannot be used outside of combat" to all of these abilities and yet they all got a pass. See BLM, RDM, DNC as some examples if they want to play optimally (Sharpcast, Acceleration, Dances). Having this with SMN was no different besides a longer wait.

There is no way to know this is a "hard stance" by SE as you claim it to be. However, if there was to be one, the solution would be just to start with 0 stacks as before and use the system in my opening post that I have just quoted. Aetherflow would simply be a first weave - thats about the only change from a raiding stand point.

However, this system doesn't work as nicely in dungeons where there is no target as we cannot refresh Aether and that might be fine. Previously in stormblood, we could go through a dungeon and have 3 stacks and be able to use another 3 stacks when AF was back in quick succession if we rushed DWT for a grand total of 6 stacks used in a short time frame. As a result, I would possibly give Aetherflow 2 Charges to bring this back to dungeons, and if needed, give it a short re-cast timer so that it cannot be re-used in quick succession in the opener in a raid setting. If this seems too radical of a change, then they could do something similar to what they have done with the current DWT/FBT. DWT cannot be used outside of combat, but FBT can. If Energy Drain generates DWT and is not able to be used outside of combat, let Energy Siphon (the upgrade to energy drain as suggested in my opening post) which could now make FBT active on use be able to be used outside of combat. Another suggestion could be to basically have the polygot system for stacks. Just create button to maintain the Aetherflow time that would keep ticking to give us stacks. However this would be a big rework when a solution is more obviously generated by looking at 4.0 SMN and the suggestions already given.