Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

[SchrodingersWaffle]

Alternatively, simply pressing the button could make the Trances "Active" rather than spending the stacks

This is pretty much what Nemehk suggested, and it's my preferred solution to that particular problem.

[CecMiller]

This is pretty much what Nemehk suggested, and it's my preferred solution to that particular problem.

I'll have to admit, I didnt see it really - maybe I skim read too much or didnt understand what was meant But yeah, it sounds great! We can use AF inside Trances and there are no issues really and only benefits.

[SchrodingersWaffle]

I'll have to admit, I didnt see it really - maybe I skim read too much or didnt understand what was meant But yeah, it sounds great! We can use AF inside Trances and there are no issues really and only benefits.

The idea as I understood it was a button on a 60s CD that gave a 60s duration buff that enabled DWT and FBT.

[Dyvid]

More brainstorming here. So I'm start to feel like Trance is really killing the stead flow here, that they should have reworked DWT similar to FBT. They should either merge Demi-B with DWT or separate Demi-P from FBT.

-DWT changes Outburst to PainFlare and R3 to R4 or Fester.
-Enhanced Dreadwyrm Trance II basically just summons Bahamut when DWT is cast.
-Energy Drain adds 4 stacks of Aetherflow
-Aetherflow is the resource to use Egi Assaults.

[Gallus]

Would have it killed them to do something like DWT -> Bahamut, FBT -> Phoenix? And then keep the aetherflow at a 60 sec timer with 3 stacks, and not this convoluted mess?

[CecMiller]

More brainstorming here. So I'm start to feel like Trance is really killing the stead flow here, that they should have reworked DWT similar to FBT. They should either merge Demi-B with DWT or separate Demi-P from FBT.

-DWT changes Outburst to PainFlare and R3 to R4 or Fester.
-Enhanced Dreadwyrm Trance II basically just summons Bahamut when DWT is cast.
-Energy Drain adds 4 stacks of Aetherflow
-Aetherflow is the resource to use Egi Assaults.

I think DWT will eventually be combined with Bahamut in the way FBT and phoenix are. However, I can also understand people requesting FBT and Phoenix Summon to be decoupled in the way DWT and Bahamut is. I think they will end up consolidating them however to make room for another demi summon some time in the future possibly? I'm not sure how they could do it with a 2 minute cycle without extending it to 3 minutes say. Summoner would really be special in that regard then for having one of the longest cycles.

Its entirely possible we don't get a 3rd demi summon... but the synergy is there! Tri-Disaster, Tri-Bind (Outburst now). Tri-Bind/Outburst has 3 colours, Blue, Red/Orange and Green, 3 minute rotation, 3 pets. We already have Blue and Orange/Red - that leaves green, but I'm off topic now.

I'm not sure how I'd feel about Aetherflow being linked to Egi Assaults. In their current incarnation? I could see it happen as the stacks themselves could also become Ruin 4 Generators. 4 AF stacks a minute, 4 Ruin 4's a minute as is possible right now. That said, I'd want Egi Assaults to be a bit more potent if such a change was considerered - Right now they're pretty feeble and feels like APM pad if it was not for the fact that they generate us important Ruin 4 stacks.

Would have it killed them to do something like DWT -> Bahamut, FBT -> Phoenix? And then keep the aetherflow at a 60 sec timer with 3 stacks, and not this convoluted mess?

I'd be more than happy to get the old Aetherflow back - and it wouldnt take that much effort to re-introduce it. As for seperating FBT and Phoenix, that would certainly be interesting and it would feel like we would have less downtime due to the phoenix following a forced full duration FBT. I personally have no horse in this race - I'm fine with it as is, and I'm fine with it being changed. It is jarring in some way to have us be able to weave Egi Assaults during FBT whilst levelling and then having that be removed at level 80. I wonder if this is the case for any other job?

[Kyohei]

[QUOTE=CecMiller;5053997]Hey there,



1) Energy Drain/Energy Siphon requires a target and is incredibly frustrating when there is any forced downtime.


2) The removal of flexibility regarding trance timings and the current Aetherflow detachment from the cycle creates some frustrating gameplay experiences.


6) Bahamut feels awkward to use.


9) Slipstream on garuda.


10) The class arguable got more complex/harder.


/QUOTE]

As for the other points, i've not noticed it so can't be bothered by them or enjoy them. Simply neutral.

1) It did feel annoying the first hour i played but then was okay.
2) I haven't experienced any frustration regarding this matter yet because i'm constantly busy thanks to the new design the job that's including a 3 layer rotation rather than one big rotation.
6) Yeah bahamut does feel awkward idly standing there, his wyrmwave animation is still barely noticeable so it doesn't help :/ seem like a floating statue moving around with you...
9) The lack of feedback on pet annoys me the most with current smn, i have to put garuda in focus if i want them and this shouldn't be like this. We need to have feedback in some way, putting the dot on mobs like you said should be how it is rather than on garuda. it makes no sense to make the dot time feedback on an entity that's not represented anywhere on HUD...
10) This is the reason why I like playing SMN again actually i actually now feel like i'm not bored compared to all the other jobs except NIN. However i can understand why some might not like it, but it's still nice that some jobs are more complex than others so there's for all tastes.

I'm not 80 with SMN yet but I'm very please with my current rotation that allows me to never be bored.

Still at lvl 77 right now but what i'm doing right now is cutting the rotation into three layers to make the most of it and never have a skill sitting down:

1st layer: tri-disaster, energy drain (or the aoe one), dreadwyrm trance+devotion, use egi assault coupled with insta ruin IV and eventually insert some fester/painflare, blow dreadwyrm trance at 1-2s left
By that time you have energy drain cd ready and stacks of insta ruin.
2nd layer: Summon bahamut and akh morn, tri disater, energy drain, use a stack of ruin, fester, use stack of ruin and possibly another one, second akh morn, fester/painflare, use last stack of ruin, then proceed to ruin II spamming until bahamut goes away
You then have some time before phoenix trance is up so i'm using it to reapply dots, energy drain and replenish stacks of ruin (using egi assaults) .
3rd layer: phoenix trance+ devotion, fountain of fire, fester/painflare, brand of purgatory, and repeat it until the time's up (while inserting some energy drain at some point instead of fester cause no more stack of aetherflow)

Doing this I'm never waiting for something or having unused skills/sitting on cds.

[CecMiller]

Okay, there is a lot I want to comment on so this might be a bit large

*snip*

1) It did feel annoying the first hour i played but then was okay.

For me - its an absolutely clear regression from 4.0 SMN. It will continue to be "annoying" for me all expansion long.

In 4.0 you didnt have to have a target to refresh AF and now you do. Improving this is simply beneficial for Summoners in general. I'm sure no-one finds it fun that we CAN'T refresh AF if we have no target or we have 1s left on the cooldown but the mob pack just dies. This is not fun and feels unnecessarily punishing.

Further down the line, we will have a set rotation for raids, and we become at the mercy of fight design AND kill speed which is dependant on groups.

Imagine this scenario: You are fighting a boss and your team is doing good dps which makes the boss trigger its mechanic early or jump away early. As a result, you no longer can refresh your Aetherflow as you previously could. Its unnecessary and simply evens the playing field across all scenarios. This was just a raid example.

But like I said, I don't think anyone genuinely enjoys not being able to refresh aetherflow without a target as its a net negative and feels bad when compared to 4.0 and the changes I'm hoping for is purely beneficial and fun.

2) I haven't experienced any frustration regarding this matter yet because i'm constantly busy thanks to the new design the job that's including a 3 layer rotation rather than one big rotation.

If I'm honest, this tells me one of two things.

You have not done the ex fights using an optimal rotation or you weren't as well versed in 4.0+ SMN as I was. The reason I say this is that in Titania EX, you are immediately blocked from doing Phoenix trance on the 3 mobs that spawn as it is only available as the final mob is dying or with faster teams - not even up yet. As a result, the boss goes untargetable whilst its summoning the bigger versions of the adds. Unless you aren't playing optimally, you will have phoenix trance be delayed here and as a result, forcefully have your cycle delayed.

So whats the difference from 4.0+?

Previously, you were soley dependant on Aetherflow meaning you could spend all your stacks and "rush" a use of a DWT or Bahamut. As a result, in the above Titania EX example, we wouldnt have had to "wait" until FBT came back up. We could have rushed it and got its full use without delaying our cycle. Furthermore, our Aetherflow would never have been delayed in such a manner as we simply pressed it to generate stacks and keep our cycle ticking. This gave us incredible flexibility and choice that demonstrated player skill via having the knowledge of knowing that you could rush Phoenix and get its full duration off without delaying your summoner cycle.

With the current iteration of Summoner, we are at the mercy of fight design when we previously were incredibly strong regardless of fight design (our downtime power was arguably the strongest)

4.0 SMN had incredibly versatility in when it wanted to deploy its trances and summons vs. the current design.

To demonstrate it, assume we use 3 Festers

00:00 - Aetherflow + Dots
00:12 - DWT active after having used all 3 Festers
00:28 - DWT Ends and Bahamut active
01:00 - Aetherflow

Lets assume it takes anywhere from 12-15s to use 3 stacks (it can be rushed to be faster). As DWT previously restriced the use of Aetherflow in 4.0+, we had to use these stacks before using DWT. DWT lasted 16 seconds (?). Our Aetherflow was back in exactly 1 minutes time. This means we had 1:00 - 00:16 - 00:15(assume worst case) = 00:39 seconds of leeway to use DWT whenever we wanted without disrupting our cycle.

The current system forces us to use DWT on CD if we want to maintain our cycle. This is a regression from 4.0 where we had far more leeway for optimal use of our abilities.

In dungeons, this is undoubtedly worse too.

Previously, you just pressed aetherflow on CD if it was up as a pack of mobs died and you continued your cycle. I was well versed in abusing summoner in dungeons due to this fact. This means you could DWT whenever you spent your stacks and when you thought it was optimal.

Currently, if a pack of mobs are dead, you cannot simply press FBT/DWT and continue you cycle. This forces you to wait until the next pack of mobs and thus delays your cycle for however long that takes (including gathering all the mobs into a big pull). This is just straight worse in general and is hopefully self-explanitory. But incase it isn't: you lose uses of demi summons and aetherflow uses with 5.0 more than you ever did with 4.0+ SMN.

I raid a hell of a lot so I'm very knowledgable in how this was best used and why our current iteration is so much worse comparitively in a multitude of ways beyond being flexible. Further, the old system could have easily accomodated using Aetherflow stacks inside trances as explained at the bottom of my opening post.

To end, I will just quote Yoshida again with what he said:

Q: Aetherflow was also separated from the Dreadwyrm Trance/Summon Bahamut cycle.

Yoshida: Regaining Aetherflow was also a stress point, and now we're focusing on the actual act of summoning. Up until now, there was a bit of downtime after summoning Bahamut, so now you can continue on with summoning Firebird, doing a large summon whenever the recast time rolls around. This mechanical change was simply a result of addressing a major cause of stress

The current system is, as demonstrated above, worse off with regards to stress points and its clear that judging from this answer that this was not the intended design.

10) This is the reason why I like playing SMN again actually i actually now feel like i'm not bored compared to all the other jobs except NIN. However i can understand why some might not like it, but it's still nice that some jobs are more complex than others so there's for all tastes.

I'm glad to hear!

The reason I mentioned it is that the change is highly divisive. We have about the CPM (casts per minute) as a bard does but nothing comes close to Ninja.

My only issue with complexity is when we compare DPS of other jobs against one another whilst ignoring complexity. If a job was very hard to master, had several nuances that you had to become accustomed to and account for whilst another job was straight forward and did near equivalent dps, would you be happy?

For me? Personally thats a big no. If a job is pretty complex to play optimally, and depending on how hard the pitfalls are for losing dps, it would be incredibly unfair if they offered equivalent dps than a job that does the same dps but is much easier to execute and didnt have the equivalent pitfalls.

I'm all for complexity and difficulty and opportunities for players to flex their mastery of a job (ie. 4.1+ SMN when DWT/AF usage was more flexible) - I just want it to have some semblence of reflection in my dps when compared to other jobs vs. only other players of my job. This is because, the easier one with less harsh pitfalls would prove to be the more popular choice for a variety of reasons besides its ease of play that results in equivalent dps. This is probably a more nuanced discussion however so I'll stop there as its besides the point.

In the end, this style of play is VERY different to 4.0 SMN and is something I'm already accustomed too, but it still needs to be iterated on via instant feedback for generating Ruin 4s on button press rather than on pet execution etc. My only concern is that when a job gets too complex and too difficult, there is a gulf in class between the players who know hot to execute it vs. those that dont and when we compare them to "easier to play" jobs that offer the same dps, the harder/more complex class serves to be less popular as the effort to reward isn't really there. Most jobs were made easier or given more tools to make their jobs easier in general in 5.0. SMN was sent in the other direction and made harder and was one of the few jobs that this happened to.

I will have a read of the other posts in a while!

[Myon88]

Summoner was always a '3 layer job' or whatever you want to call it, nothing has changed in that regard.

1. Generate and spend aetherflow
2. Activate dreadwyrm trance (twice)
3. Summon demi bahamut, repeat

Well, actually something has changed. The old version was more flexible because within each 1 minute interval after aetherflow, you could choose to use dreadwyrm trance and summon bahamut at any time you liked. With the new system, the first step in the cycle is to activate dreadwyrm trance, and if you do so at 0:05 at the beginning of the fight for example, you must activate it again at 1:05 in order to maximize your damage. If the boss chooses to disappear at 1:00 for some reason, now you have a serious dilemma on your hands.

I'm pretty sure the starter of this thread knows all this stuff very well because of their extensive raid experience. In fact, I think you will find that the more experienced someone is with summoner, the more they tend to dislike the 5.0 changes because they have a full understanding of all the liabilities the new design contains.

[Kyohei]

I've been playing this job since ARR and no it wasn't always like this. ARR smn wasn't, HW smn wasn't, SB smn started a bit by repeating dreadwyrm rotation twice then summoning bahamut. However the SB smn seemed like a rough and clunky sketch of what it's become now. ShB according to me made a clearer design for smn job.
All i can say it that for now i find this new design more fun to play and a lot less clunky than its SB iteration.
I don't think one really ever "choose" to use dreadwyrm trance or summon bahamut. Maybe there was an illusion of choice and flexibility but once bahamut was ready, one would summon it. Using dreadwyrm instead of bahamut would be a waste a dreadwyrm and postpone the ability to summon bahamut again. The system how it's designed now remove this possibility to "waste" anything. It's just a matter of getting used to the whole thing and seeing it differently.
Also still the beginning of the new expansion so no one can say they understand all of its content and gotten used to/mastered all of them.
Not liking the new smn because they were experienced with SB one? Maybe, because most of the time the more experienced you are with a job, the less easy it is to accept/understand changes and adapt. The brain being wired into the previous iteration makes it so, and it often takes more than a week to adapt to new things. Especially if it's one's main job and they've been doing the same thing for all these years. However it's inaccurate and certainly not a fact to link disliking and fully understanding the new design.