Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

[Atamis]

But they never hit the spot with summoner. Its been warlock/spiritualist since its introduction and thus we get continuous threads on reworks because if you call a bird a dog people expect it to do dog things.

[HeulGDarian]

But they never hit the spot with summoner. Its been warlock/spiritualist since its introduction and thus we get continuous threads on reworks because if you call a bird a dog people expect it to do dog things.

Thats the problem. The fact that People still think that he is a warlock cause he has 2 dots called bio and miasma. i researched warlock and his skills i compared every single tree and the only comparison between them is they both have dots and warlock has a rouse at some point. they are completely different. they compare this iteration of summoner to their favourite like yuna saying Thats a True summoner look no dots without realising that not every summoner is the same and that no summoner is only summoning like yuna Who has white magic as well. Lots of Jobs have dots but since ours are called bio and miasma along with how arr did things even though they didnt expand to make dots do More stuff People Will still say he is a warlock. Youre Just using them to do More dmg with tridi being your sharpcast. this isnt a warlock system where your dots shred resistances heal you makes you infest enemies for More summons which you can then kill to heal or power up.

Wtf is even a spiritualist we dont even use ghosts to fight. Not until we summon shiva or knights of the round at least. That Just sounds made up.
It obviously didnt Hit the spot for every single man woman and Child of the planet. But for those Who arent blind to their own nostalgia and stuck to It watching It finally reach the next stage It did if you still thought in stormblood that smn wasnt a smn then you wont change your opinion now like you didnt back then. And the arguement is as invalid and hurtfull to the job as It was then. Thankfully the devs already did It once in shadowbringer and picked 1 way rather than both with monk in 5. 05 where there the community was split between going slow and fast and they picked the sensible option

[Nyoraii]

Thats the problem. The fact that People still think that he is a warlock cause he has 2 dots called bio and miasma. i researched warlock and his skills i compared every single tree and the only comparison between them is they both have dots and warlock has a rouse at some point. they are completely different. they compare this iteration of summoner to their favourite like yuna saying Thats a True summoner look no dots without realising that not every summoner is the same and that no summoner is only summoning like yuna Who has white magic as well. Lots of Jobs have dots but since ours are called bio and miasma along with how arr did things even though they didnt expand to make dots do More stuff People Will still say he is a warlock. Youre Just using them to do More dmg with tridi being your sharpcast. this isnt a warlock system where your dots shred resistances heal you makes you infest enemies for More summons which you can then kill to heal or power up.

Wtf is even a spiritualist we dont even use ghosts to fight. Not until we summon shiva or knights of the round at least. That Just sounds made up.
It obviously didnt Hit the spot for every single man woman and Child of the planet. But for those Who arent blind to their own nostalgia and stuck to It watching It finally reach the next stage It did if you still thought in stormblood that smn wasnt a smn then you wont change your opinion now like you didnt back then. And the arguement is as invalid and hurtfull to the job as It was then. Thankfully the devs already did It once in shadowbringer and picked 1 way rather than both with monk in 5. 05 where there the community was split between going slow and fast and they picked the sensible option

The problem isn't that SMN has dots, the problem is that the dots don't have anything to do with the job. In fact, Poison/Bio are BLM that were assigned to SMN because they wanted a dot class, that's it. If it was maybe a fire dot coming from Ifrit or from trancing to Ifrit, that would be okay, although I still think making the job identity tied to summoning dots would still be lame, they're basically forcing the class to be what it was never meant to be. And yeah, they shamelessly copied wow warlock from the beginning, having no idea what to do with this class, then in every expansion they were distancing from it, most of the new spells are summon related and burst related too. Then in this expansion I don't know why they go around and make ruinfesters and now again SMN's core identity continues being more tied to dots than to summons.

In fact, if you look at this breakdown, the damage coming from dots and nukes related to dots is more than 1.5x the damage coming from Summon related abilities, at which point I ask: Is it really a Summoner?

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/RFmv7...-done&source=6

Also worthy of mention: Ifrit does less damage than a dot (lol).

[HeulGDarian]

The problem isn't that SMN has dots, the problem is that the dots don't have anything to do with the job. In fact, Poison/Bio are BLM that were assigned to SMN because they wanted a dot class, that's it. If it was maybe a fire dot coming from Ifrit or from trancing to Ifrit, that would be okay, although I still think making the job identity tied to summoning dots would still be lame, they're basically forcing the class to be what it was never meant to be. And yeah, they shamelessly copied wow warlock from the beginning, having no idea what to do with this class, then in every expansion they were distancing from it, most of the new spells are summon related and burst related too. Then in this expansion I don't know why they go around and make ruinfesters and now again SMN's core identity continues being more tied to dots than to summons.

In fact, if you look at this breakdown, the damage coming from dots and nukes related to dots is more than 1.5x the damage coming from Summon related abilities, at which point I ask: Is it really a Summoner?

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/RFmv7...-done&source=6

Also worthy of mention: Ifrit does less damage than a dot (lol).

since you completely ignored everything. ill just answer the only point that you added and makes no sense . No just cause your dots numbers are bigger than the pet damage numbers doesn't make you a warlock especially since you compared it to just the one egi when the job pet damage also includes demi-summons and pet buffs.

[Nyoraii]

since you completely ignored everything. ill just answer the only point that you added and makes no sense . No just cause your dots numbers are bigger than the pet damage numbers doesn't make you a warlock especially since you compared it to just the one egi when the job pet damage also includes demi-summons and pet buffs.

You're the one who isn't able to read, if you sum up all of the damage that comes from summon related stuff, it amounts to about 35% of the overall damage, less than half.

The poison mage aspect of the job does about 65% of the damage, which begs the question: What is the job fantasy they're trying to sell here when everything related to SUMMONS on a SUMMONER can't even amount to half the dps of the class?

[HeulGDarian]

Also i know I'm being overzealous but you guys are basically saying "you guys aren't playing or liking a summoner they should take everything that we don't like except the demi summons make it another job and make you migrate in that job so that we true summoners can finally play an actual good job" . if Yoshi p ever found a middle point that we both can enjoy id take it . but I'm not going to swap and lose my job just cause you don't feel like going to another playground . and is a great comparison because I'll say it again this isn't an argument if summoner is actually a summoner . this is you throwing a fit saying "this isn't my summoner i want my summoner".

[Dyvid]

So far we have seen delete DoTs, delete pets, delete cast times, delete ruin..... Is it any wonder SE can't figure out what the community wants? It's basically delete SMN right now.

[Dyvid]

Well I'm going on record now in saying that it's time for Demi's to end. Two is enough and it's clear adding more is just going to complicate the job even more. From 81-90 it's time to add another layer to SMN that would be one and done summon spells, Tempus. Tempus Odin would appear, do a straight line attack then disappear. Tempus Alexander would do an AoE attack. In this way we would have permanent pets; Egi. Our rotational pets; Demi. Then burst damage pets: Tempus.

But before that, SE needs to lock down our Demi/Trance rotation and make Egi damage worth the effort of having the commands on the hotbar.

[Taranok]

Well I'm going on record now in saying that it's time for Demi's to end. Two is enough and it's clear adding more is just going to complicate the job even more. From 81-90 it's time to add another layer to SMN that would be one and done summon spells, Tempus. Tempus Odin would appear, do a straight line attack then disappear. Tempus Alexander would do an AoE attack. In this way we would have permanent pets; Egi. Our rotational pets; Demi. Then burst damage pets: Tempus.

But before that, SE needs to lock down our Demi/Trance rotation and make Egi damage worth the effort of having the commands on the hotbar.

You realize the biggest reason people are complaining about Summoner right now is that it has too many layers, and that the layers aren't very interesting or worthwhile, right? Unless your goal of "adding layers" is adding thematic layers instead of rotational layers, in which case I could get on board with that.

And having these types of summons would allow the devs to get crazy if they wanted to (no surprise that they probably won't) by summoning these temporary super summons outside the arena itself and do the attack from outside kind of like how A12 does. (This is why it probably would never be done).

That said, we can have more demis without the rotation getting overcomplicated. But you need to design 4 relatively simple rotations of varying complexity that you have the ability to custom tune off of the base jobs to do it.

Imagine if you took Ruin3, Ruin 2, Outburst, Egi Assaults 1 and 2, and Enkindle and started turning them into different abilities when different summons were out. It need not be 6, but it can be that many, more, or fewer. Then you can turn each trance (demi) rotation into its own unique rotation with as many GCDs and oGCDs as you want. It could be 1 like DB (Akh Morn), 3 like DP, (FoP/FoF/Rev), they could make a powerful demi summon do 5 separate unique actions flavored after the demi, and the kicker is these abilities need not be that different from each other in terms of potency much like how DP is a reskin of DB. How you execute it can be more important than the damage, as it will sate a class style that Summoner kind of does now, but not quite, in that it is a class that changes its rotation based on what summon is out, making the summon have a unique texture to it even if its substance is very similar.

Having temporary summons that do one-off or short duration effects would be fine as well to mix in with this system, but so would keeping the class at 2 summons and finding ways to make the rest of the class more interesting without making it frustratingly overbearing and disjointed.

EDIT: At the very least, these are long term goals, not short term ones. Right now, as I've brought up before, Summoner just flat out needs to play smoothly. But looking forward, having a rework to focus on the primal summoning and interaction aspect of the class should be the way to go.

[Dyvid]

You realize the biggest reason people are complaining about Summoner right now is that it has too many layers, and that the layers aren't very interesting or worthwhile, right? Unless your goal of "adding layers" is adding thematic layers instead of rotational layers, in which case I could get on board with that..

The problem isn't the layers, it's the layers just aren't working together with the job. But I've already giving plenty of feedback on how to get all this mechanics to mesh together in function. I'm saying it just a spell with recast timer. No flashy mechanics needed for it.

Not necessarily.
Post-Lv.80, they could always rework them so they fulfill a certain function (similar to BRD's songs, as in, rotating between them all in a "sequence").
Probably culminating into a high burst damaging one, like "Worm Trance" (ie. Shinryu's) or something.

It just starts to become an even more crowded field at that point, one that would require more rework, more takeaways, and ultimately more problems when it finally drops because of the unnecessary rework. A solid two Demi rotation is good. We are become more and more akin to BRD as it is. Each job needs its own identity with it's own unique playstyle.