Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

[ChaoticCrimson]

I know historically the SSS dummies aren't the best indicators for DPS, but is anyone else having issues with the EX dummies? I'm at i432 and it seems like no matter how I tweak my rotation I can't get it below 5% for the Innocence one. I'm really struggling to decide whether it's more advantageous to use up DWT/Bahamut/FBT as soon as they're available or to hold off on one or more of those until a specific point. Nothing seems to really line up well anymore, and it also seems like I'm hard casting DoTs a lot more. Back throughout 4.x you really only needed to do that during the downtime before the Bahamut phase, but now Everything seems so off, among other issues.

[Gallus]

Literally anything would've been better than the mess we have now.

DWT -> Summon Bahamut -> FBT -> Summon Phoenix?

Would've worked.

Integrating Bahamut inside DWT just like Phoenix is integrated inside FBT?

Would've worked too.

INSTEAD.

We have a useless DWT that all it gives is instant casts to weave garbage EA spells that hit like a wet noodle, then we have summon bahamut, and then we have DWT turning into FBT and becoming the summon phoenix. So DWT and FBT share button, there's no summon phoenix button but we do have a summon bahamut button, but then both enkindle phoenix and enkindle bahamut do share button.


I swear they have something personal with the SMN playerbase and want to troll it.

[Len]

I’ve decided to move on from Summoner at the moment, and I’m not hopeful that any changes incoming in the near future will be adequate enough to warrant a return.

[NovaBismarck]

I've had issues with timing as well in pug content. The rigidity of the rotation can be problematic in deciding how to proceed. Right now damage feels low enough that holding onto your bigger damage phases is impossible but sometimes it puts you in the downtime phase where damage doesn't feel great. You just have to pray to Cthulhu that you end up in the right place for dps checks. I used to be able to manipulate my damage better to fit phases, so personally I don't like lack of flexibility. Now, maybe an increase in damage would make it feel less like your head is under water and you can't get above for air. However, I still see the current layout as problematic. Maybe with some tweaking, it'd work more fluently. 4.0 was a nightmare and they really fixed it and we ended up with a good rotation. 5.0 isn't as bad as 4.0, but it doesn't feel good to play to me and that's all I care about. I could care less about lore or egi interactions. Pets will always be glitchy, always. So more egi interaction will always mean more glitch.

I'm with Gallus. Compared to some of the other jobs it feels like we got left by the wayside a bit. Dots falling down, man it hurts. Having to move from r3 cast or getting interrupted hurts. And heavy movement content can take some time to deal with. Bahamut feels clunky. If the numbers are buffed a bit, it will be something that we can live with. However, casual players are definitely screwed playing this class, the skill ceiling is high. As far as I'm concerned a class that can't both work fluently for casuals and reward professionals for their endeavors has fallen short. My FC is casual and everyone who have touched summoner, said nope. I can't do this. There is too much going on. I will also say group ups with smns in casual content has not been going well, they tend to struggle hard overall. I'm trying to be vocal because I want to see changes that will make it easier on everyone.
I will continue to try to maximize my rotation and keep moving on, regardless of how it plays out since this is my beloved class but I am waiting to see what buffs we will get, if any.

[Vulcwen]

Well since I got my SMN to 80 and did some EX trials, I can say this. Energy drain/siphon requires a target doesn't feels frustrating. In a way once you get used to it, it's much better now that it has a 30sec CD. Trance timings...it does felt weird in these new changes. Yet, stormblood's SMN, from using your DWT to summon bahamut, there was a wait time in process in order to keep your DPS high. Made it into a strict rotation because if you mess that up, you lose DPS overall. In time it becomes annoying so I can see why they abolished that design. Forced drop DoTs....what? I don't understand that. Playing since ARR, why now that's a requirement for SMNs? APM issue....well I already thought that it was a job that make you busy overall so it wasn't much of a problem for me. The ghost action, yeah I see that as a problem, but i'm sure it would take time for the team to adjust that. Bahamut doesn't feel awkward once you understand that it doesn't attack if you use an ability hotbar...that's all it is. Have to remove that in your brain that it can't wyrmwave using abilities. Energy siphon...free dmg, don't mind it. Everlasting flight is amazing as a utility, helps healers in the longterm..although you have to group up around your party to get the effect.. Slipstream...if the tank moves via AoEs, nothing you can do about it as long you get a ruin 4 stack, that's what matters. Difficulty curve...I don't think so. If you play SMN in stormblood, just take off a few things, add in a few things and nothing really changed..adjust your brain.

Overall, I like the change for 5.X SMN. Doesn't feel restricted to know when to use your bahamut. No lockdown on your aetherflow stacks during DWT. Can DoT/Bane much easier now. CC does more dmg than 4.X version SMN. Hmm, 1 thing I can say to buff SMN is the garuda egi potencies on their assaults.

The bliss of ignorance is really high with this job now (not as an insult here, I even notice that if I don't care to optimize, it's actually quite enjoyable).
DoTs are forced to drop at some point because the cycle doesn't fit, you have to alternate whether you use tri-disaster before or after the trance, thus it creates a dot application timing of something like this:
0 tri-d > 1 trance > 30 tri-d (reset) > 61 trance > 62 tri-d (reset) (dots drop for 2s) > 92 hardcast > 120 tri-d (regular) (clip dots by 2s).
You can try and rearrange it, but you will always find your dots will drop somewhere. This ends up getting worse when you consider how your gcds line up and how dots tend to delay slightly when applying.

Also, you still build up damage to phoenix, and you need to time your bahamut early (cut your DWT short) to get dots and akh morn in raid buffs. There is less choice, but still plenty of naunces to deal with. The main issues people had with 4.1 SMN are just moved to other places. That said, I do support a higher CPM rotation, and the 30s aetherflow cycle. It's fun and also works really well at lower levels, although I think the CPM from egi assaults could be cut down slightly.

[Gallus]

You will always find your dots will drop somewhere. This ends up getting worse when you consider how your gcds line up and how dots tend to delay slightly when applying.

I've noticed this too. And yes, it's annoying as hell. It would be as easy as making Miasma and Bio III last 36 seconds instead of 30, then again, that would make sense. You are asking for common sense to a bunch of people that decided to turn Ruins into festeruins, making SMN a completely clown class in large scale bosses such as S hunts (and some As in peak hours), big fates or possibly future content with 50+ players involved, because guess what? Even the WHM next to you will make fun of your DPS when your Ruins III have an inevitable potency of 100 because you cannot apply your dots.
And they decided that festeruins were a good idea because...?
You go ask SE. I'll be playing BLM or even RDM on the meantime, I've leveled SMN to 80 and I was really, really excited about it, but I refuse to play this joke class in its current state.

[GrizzlyTank]

Not 80 yet with SMN, just 71 as the time of this writing but the traits gives me the impression that it's mostly feature complete now.
Prety much the only change i would like to see is having Trance and Flare being replaced by Bahamut and Enkindle during max stacks.

Don't exactly see a reason why two skills that periodically replace two other skills can't just override them on the hotbar.

[Taranok]

*snip*

While the class will never be a "real summoner" such as a FFX summoner, the devs are remarkably close to getting as close to a "real summoner" in FFXIV as is possibly, but it requires basically accepting that the first couple iterations of summoner were deeply flawed, and that the DWT/FBT cycle is the closest to "real summoner" that FFXIV has ever had, and emphasizing that is better.

To the people who want a poison mage, the devs should take all the ideas they've had for SMN pre-SB and find a way to work that into a class that functions well as that type of class, and split the "real summoner" off and design it based on the other half of the class, the DWT/FBT rotation, and possibly add more pseudo-summons. Consider removing the DoT nature from the class outright, definitely remove egis because the egis are stupid at this point, and find ways to allow the player to more meaningfully interact with the demi-summons beyond simple enkindles and GCD copying.

I've heard ideas for making it so "egi assault" instead temp-summons a summon, partially, to do a singular attack before fading away. The two camps are divided because some people legitimately like SMN's base gameplay in ARR and HW and, despite it breaking the game balance wise, there are legitimate reasons to like how it played, and it might work well for a different class altogether. But the people who saw ShB's changes and went "Wow, it's starting to look like a real summoner" want to push it towards the best version of summoner that FFXIV can possibly have.

What I think we can all agree on at this point is that, whether you like its business or not, the class has serious flow issues right now, and they need to be addressed.

[Taranok]

Not 80 yet with SMN, just 71 as the time of this writing but the traits gives me the impression that it's mostly feature complete now.
Prety much the only change i would like to see is having Trance and Flare being replaced by Bahamut and Enkindle during max stacks.

Don't exactly see a reason why two skills that periodically replace two other skills can't just override them on the hotbar.

There's a lot of things like that. For instance, ED/ES could be 1 button each that changes into fester/painflare if you had charges (I'd rather they were removed outright though). DWT and Deathflare can be one button, Enkindle Bahamut and Summon Bahamut could be 1 button. DWT could flat out just summon bahamut so you no longer need that button. EA1 and 2 are basically redundant with each other.

You're only missing a couple features of the class at this point as well. Ruination extension, bane spreading ruination, and not being able to Egi Assault while DP is up which, ironically, makes the class a tiny bit easier since you have far fewer oGCDs you can press during DP. But I digress.

The devs tried pulling off a minor rework of SMN, and basically are tearing it apart at this point to the point where it needs an immediate rework just to get it serviceable to limp it along to a proper rework.

[Ryulaido]

Will we ever get an Odin Summon ? He gets almost no screentime in the games story from all primals can we at least summon him one day? it was the perfect chance after bahamut but we got that phoenix bird... so chances are very low right?

if Odin were implented for SMN i would make him my main.

Am i really the only one wishing for Odin as an summon? i couldnt find anything on google i hope this is no off topic. its considered as feedback to SMN right? xD