Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

[CecMiller]

Yeah, we're in quite the predicament.

I always felt our AOE rotation was more involved, but ultimately more fun in 4.0. Right now, its still more involved, more the reward for executing it to maximum effect is pitiful. The current BLM AOE rotation flows very nicely with alternating with Freeze -> Filler if any 2x Flare. SMN is an entirely different beast and works very differenly to most AOE rotations from other jobs. Most other jobs usually have 1-2 combos for their AOE rotation and a bigger cooldown finisher. Summoner is a bit more complex (Dot management, Pet management, Trance and Demi-Summons, GCD usage, Aetherflow) but previously you rewarded for it when the stars aligned and you had all the tools at your disposal for maximum AOE damage.

Now however, we have sunk to a big low in our AOE dps as is demonstrated by this link:

https://imgur.com/a/URKizDW

I just wish that there was a bigger reward for the work we have to put in. Frankly, the fact that a 1-2 button combo for AOE rotation and 1 button for a finisher outperfoms us in AOE dps is a bit insulting. We have to do a lot more to maximize our AOE dps than most jobs which I cover in an earlier post:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5060718

With regards to other posts: At the top level you did more pet swapping than you current do. In EX primals, there are no adds within cleave range and so Garuda is pretty useless as this is the only situation garuda is made for: cleavable adds. Ifrit barely beats Garuda in a single target situation too (approximately 1.2x the power in single target). Before, when there were downtimes, you would swap to garuda for contagion, and then unleash whatever burst you have with your demi-summons and aetherflow before swapping back to ifrit at more raid dps gain (and pdps gain) than you lost via having to swap back later. That said, garuda was stronger in general after the nerfs to ifrit so instead of the pet swap opener, we were using garuda full time. Its why I'm a bit sad that contagion is gone and wasn't made more responsive and usable because it was a good reason to swap pets (provided ifrit dealt higher single target damage). I wish there were more reasons to swap pets for sure.

But yes, I wish there was a bit more reason to swap pets than there currently is. I have a lot of ideas myself but most of my posts and comments are about our current problems and fixes that I feel are the most feasible with regards to speed and ease of implementation. But the general ideas on display inside these SMN threads could all work!

[Angry_Evil]

I never liked DWT skipping in 4.0. It always sounded like horrible design. They just could allow us to refresh aetherflow during dwt without allowing to actually use stacks during dwt. but nooo

[dinnertime]

Yeah, they should've just went with simple QoL changes than give an overhaul. They could've improved upon the "annoying" parts instead of trying to fix with prevention, which unsurprisingly made things worse.

Like for Demi-Bahamut for example, we can't use ogcds to trigger Wyrmwaves now because they probably thought it was annoying to wait for Aetherflow before summoning him, and it was. What they could've done was make Demi-Bahamut give us the ability to use Aetherflow abilities without the need of Aetherflow stacks. Really anything that would promote using ogcds in Bahamut phase which made it fun, while making the process less annoying.

I'm not a pro SMN so I'm not too sure if it's a good idea but just throwing it out there.

[Angry_Evil]

Yeah, they should've just went with simple QoL changes than give an overhaul. They could've improved upon the "annoying" parts instead of trying to fix with prevention, which unsurprisingly made things worse.

Like for Demi-Bahamut for example, we can't use ogcds to trigger Wyrmwaves now because they probably thought it was annoying to wait for Aetherflow before summoning him, and it was. What they could've done was make Demi-Bahamut give us the ability to use Aetherflow abilities without the need of Aetherflow stacks. Really anything that would promote using ogcds in Bahamut phase which made it fun, while making the process less annoying.

I'm not a pro SMN so I'm not too sure if it's a good idea but just throwing it out there.

Really, turn R3 into some phoenix like nuke and fester into special weave attack (noodle code probably won't allow that) tho probably no need for double weaves or even making weave attack to trigger WW. I personally fine with double weaving cause my ping allows me to do it, but I understand why a lot of people prefer not to

[dinnertime]

Really, turn R3 into some phoenix like nuke and fester into special weave attack (noodle code probably won't allow that) tho probably no need for double weaves or even making weave attack to trigger WW. I personally fine with double weaving cause my ping allows me to do it, but I understand why a lot of people prefer not to

Definitely. Instant Ruin III's or whatever upgraded version people are suggesting, or basically DWT and Bahamut combined/copying FBT for Bahamut. If people have a problem with double weaves, maybe keep it so Fester is the only ogcd that can trigger Wyrmwave.
Personally I prefer ogcds allowing Wyrmwave to trigger because it keeps both the SMN and Bahamut active in a good way, but with changes like these I wouldn't mind it if it doesn't.

[FrejyaAthenes]

I feel like they should've either combined Dreadwyrm Trancecand Demi-Bahamut (taking a page from Firebird Trance's book, Ruin III becomes Wyrmwave and Outburst becomes Deathflare) and increased both the times to 30s, or separate Firebird Trance and Demi-Phoenix so that you van flow from trance to demi to trance to demi with hopefully less downtime.

[Roda]

I feel like they should've either combined Dreadwyrm Trancecand Demi-Bahamut (taking a page from Firebird Trance's book, Ruin III becomes Wyrmwave and Outburst becomes Deathflare) and increased both the times to 30s, or separate Firebird Trance and Demi-Phoenix so that you van flow from trance to demi to trance to demi with hopefully less downtime.

I think they'd have to change how ruin II/IV works then 'cause DWT is where I kind of recover from having to move and build up the majority of ruin IV stacks so I won't have to use ruin II to weave in the future. :T

[Angry_Evil]

Kinda shocking that after 4.0 disaster, all the feedback and YEARS that's what we've got... That's whole another level of incompetence and detachment from reality. No idea what were they thinking...

[Taranok]

Kinda shocking that after 4.0 disaster, all the feedback and YEARS that's what we've got... That's whole another level of incompetence and detachment from reality. No idea what were they thinking...

Because the devs are working within a framework that is beyond what we, as customers, can see. The devs hate Egis as much as we do, and they're desperately trying to find a way to make Summoner feel like Summoner as much as we want them to. But things will hamper this. For instance, Arcanist lore makes it difficult to get rid of Egis. Aetherflow is kind of ingrained into Summoner and Arcanist both at a lore and gameplay level. The devs need to find ways to keep these various disparate bits intact, which leads to SMN feeling awful because of it.

The best thing to happen to Machinist was when the devs legitimately treated the class as no longer being sacred, but profane, and started gutting it, even going so far as to remove an ability from a class quest that was core to the class, Gauss Barrel. And look how much better MCH is now for it. SMN needs the same treatment but it's not a decision to be taken lightly to literally gut core features to the lore. But that's what Summoner needs as well if they are to turn it into a proper summoner, and the devs just are trying to work within the framework they already have instead of treating it as profane and not caring about what they do so long as the end results are where they want the class to be.

[Anvaire]

Because the devs are working within a framework that is beyond what we, as customers, can see. The devs hate Egis as much as we do, and they're desperately trying to find a way to make Summoner feel like Summoner as much as we want them to. But things will hamper this. For instance, Arcanist lore makes it difficult to get rid of Egis. Aetherflow is kind of ingrained into Summoner and Arcanist both at a lore and gameplay level. The devs need to find ways to keep these various disparate bits intact, which leads to SMN feeling awful because of it.

The best thing to happen to Machinist was when the devs legitimately treated the class as no longer being sacred, but profane, and started gutting it, even going so far as to remove an ability from a class quest that was core to the class, Gauss Barrel. And look how much better MCH is now for it. SMN needs the same treatment but it's not a decision to be taken lightly to literally gut core features to the lore. But that's what Summoner needs as well if they are to turn it into a proper summoner, and the devs just are trying to work within the framework they already have instead of treating it as profane and not caring about what they do so long as the end results are where they want the class to be.

The difference between Summoner and Machinist is that feedback on Machinist was generally aligned. Within Summoner there are two distinct camps. Those that like the job itineration and have played it for a long time despite its shortfalls and those that hate it and want something they call "a real summoner" and don't play it currently. The lore of XIV prevents what is referred to as "a real summoner" being implemented. I place "Real Summoner" in quotations as it seems to differ from person to person. While the current itineration has its problems, I think it is a step in the right direction same as the trances were a step in the right direction. But then I sit in the former camp and like how it is currently.

I think it boils down to the fact that the two design notions are impossible to fully align, therefore we get a bit of both in the current design. I think no matter what the devs do, they cannot please everyone, and it wouldn't be fair to fundamentally change the job, based on the wishes of those who don't play it. So taking the spirit of both ideas, for me, is the right approach.

That said, I do think there is a fundamental issue with the flow of the current job and I think it is caused by the phasic nature of its combined elements. On their own, each element works well and feels fine, but when combined, make the class feel clunky, and have a broken flow. At its core, the job is difficult and complex to play due to its myriad o elements that have short cooldowns and need to be tracked and stranger still is that the job gets a little easier to play at level 80 than it was at 72-79 which I think is a problem albeit one of lesser pertinence.