Thread: 5.0 MNK Problems

I feel like a lot of issues could be resolved with just our traits alone. We have 7 traits right now that really only need to be 3. The 2 Enhanced Greased Lightnings shouldn't be traits and you should just be able to go into GL 3 the second you get the ability. Deep Meditation should only be 1 trait at 70% chance instead of 2 traits. Enhanced Tackle is really odd since all it does is give 2 charges to our tackle. This really isn't a trait and the other classes have their charges just built into the ability. That just leaves Enhanced Fists of Fire, Deep Meditation II, and Riddle of Wind. That gives room for 4 traits to mess with.

1. Wind Tackle - Upgrades Shoulder Tackle into Wind Tackle. Wind Tackle grants Greased Lightning. Maximum Charges: 2
2. Enhanced Mantra - Mantra will also now give Chakra Focus to all players. Chakra Focus Effect: 30% chance you open a chakra when party members under this effect executes a spell. Duration 15 seconds
3. Enhanced Fists of Earth - Fists of Earth will halt the expiration of Greased Lightning. You cannot gain anymore Greased Lightnings or Chakra while in Fists of Earth
4. Chakra Overflow - Upon using a skill that requires Chakra you have a 50% chance to gain Chakra Overflow. Chakra Overflow Effect: Six-Sided Star's recast timer isn't applied to all other weaponskills. Effect expires on use. Duration 15 seconds

With these changes, I'd think it would fix a decent amount of Monks problems. It would fix our ability to get stacks of GL and lets us use Tornado Kick again, gives more chakra that isn't relied upon our party having physical dps, lets use hold GL while doing moving mechanics and in between pulls, and gives a reason to use Six-Sided Star more often. I would say there's 3 abilities I'd like to tweek though. First would be Brotherhood needs to just hit all party members. There's always some Bard or Machinist that loves to be at max range. Twin Snake's damage buff needs to be like twice as long. It's annoying to have to constantly use our weakest move to keep that buff up. Finally Fist of Wind needs to have a passive 5-10% skill speed added in. GL4 should be significantly faster than GL3.

Originally Posted by Chill_Ghost

4. Chakra Overflow - Upon using a skill that requires Chakra you have a 50% chance to gain Chakra Overflow. Chakra Overflow Effect: Six-Sided Star's recast timer isn't applied to all other weaponskills. Effect expires on use. Duration 15 seconds

I REALLY like this idea! A 400 OGCD potency attack is a bit too generous, but honestly I would really love for this to be a thing. Ship him to Headquarters!!

Originally Posted by Chill_Ghost

I feel like a lot of issues could be resolved with just our traits alone. [...]

Unfortunately this doesn't fix the problem. Firstly, they can't make the charged gap closers combo actions which is why Wind Tackle was removed. You'd need a new oGCD which grants a GL stack instead. Secondly, you're still left with two oGCDs missing which is the primary culprit leading MNK to feel more boring compared to its SB counterpart. Thirdly, these changes you're suggesting would require a total rebalance of the potencies of the entire job to balance it out with encounter design. The issue isn't a matter of MNK's viability, it's the experience of how it plays, so by doing these things it would require hefty rebalancing which is just too costly time and money-wise. Potencies at the moment are fine, it's an issue of the lack of weaving which is where MNK always got its apparent sense of speed from, just like all the other jobs in the game. It's the lack of stuff to do during slowdown windows and lack of recovery which are the issues. And fourth, it's just way too complicated and involved a fix for something that really just needs a simple solution:

Put Somersault and Axe Kick into PvE with 120-second recast timers. Done. All the problems get fixed. You get your GL stack-generating oGCD, you get your two oGCDs for weaving, and the recast timer makes them balanced and allows for a loopable rotation every 120 seconds. Soon as RoF's recast is back up you're ready to rock and roll because everything else will line up accordingly. And the best part is, it's an affordable solution because the work for those oGCDs is already done.

FWIW I did find that it's possible to do a sort of faux Double Tornado Kick Opener, though it requires a Skill Speed of over 1600 and you still run into the same issue of you having a window in which you have not much else you can do during that time, and the opener still requires you cheese the second GL stack with Anatman + server ticks, which is just not as out-the-can as just using an oGCD so it doesn't feel good to use. It feels like abusing Anatman for something it wasn't meant to do, and it results in DPS uptime loss.

I will post the rotation once I have more time to test it out.

As for FoW passives... nah.

From what I can gather, you basically want to meld SkS onto anything that'll take it. I still don't have my full set of Ronkan gear and have two pieces of left-side gear left to go before I start upgrading my other 4 jewelry pieces (I was a bad girl and decided to get the ones with SkS on them first instead of the proper weapon>chest/legs>arms/head/boots>waist>jewelry order... for science) so until I test them out at the new Stone, Sky, Sea dummies out in Eulmore, I can't say for sure if the SkS will make up appropriately for the damage output. The lowest GCD speed I have right now is 1.89 which is still too slow for me. It may very well be that they want to encourage melding to determine play style and rotation choice because there were those players who loved the double-TK opener and those players who felt it an abomination, and it may ultimately come down to melds. But until I can test at those Eulmore dummies, I can't say for sure if the speed increase appropriately makes up for the damage loss. It might.

One thing's for sure, though. I can confirm that they want to encourage double-MNKs in a party with stacked Brotherhoods. The damage boost from that is outrageous and ultra noticeable, and benefits the tanks, too. Even in 4-player dungeons with one tank, it's a night-and-day difference with the damage output versus a solo MNK. Co-MNKing is definitely a thing they want to encourage, and that I can safely say DOES feel good. Like, really good. Brotherhood windows and chakra usage feels so nice with two MNKs in a party.

Overall I think that dealing with traits and inventing new ones is too much and needs testing and rebalancing and that's just not worth it. In the immediate short term, two oGCDs that are inexpensive to implement without having to change too much of what's already there just feels like the simplest and most cost-effective way to go. So long as one of them gives GL stacks and the recast timers are balanced appropriately, I'm absolutely certain all other concerns would wash away when you can use that oGCD where you'd normally have Wind Tackle. Then it's all about just finding creative ways to use SSS and fill those windows, and you're pretty golden. Luckily SSS's recast does decrease with higher SkS, so that's what I'm currently testing for.

I think one of the biggest issues might be is speed is by far the strongest stat in most things. If you can up attack speed it's usually either so small it's negligible or OP broken. They added GL4 like we wanted but removed Sks from most endgame gear. I mean it's basically a slap in the face and straight nerf to Mnk. You get GL4 but your overall Sks is lower making any time not in GL4 weaker.

If they let us have the proper gear, with how stats increase with new level caps, plus GL4, and good melds, Mnk could get to insane heights of speed. Which IS what we want, but they have no idea how to balance that, especially with Leaden fist now. Imagine doing LF/BS crit every 5 seconds, or with PB getting 3-4 of those off. That would be fun but again, they don't know how to balance this. So Mnk is stuck in this limbo.

How do you balance it? You give players what they want. You allow Mnk at cap to reach speeds of 1.6 gcd or less. What's the balance? You would have to heavily nerf potency which again would leave Mnk terrible in low play. If they try to let Mnk be strong and fast with the counter being a need for high focus to maximize dps and not lose stacks, then it becomes one of the hardest dps and alienates people. What's our future? How can we improve? Stats will keep getting higher, but Sks can't go too high, another reason our Sks may have been nerfed.

Mnk is the class built around speed, and speed is strong and hard to balance. I really don't know what they can do but I hope they figure it out. I love Mnk, but I hate the treatment it has gotten past couple years.

Actually... like I said I think if you attach Quickarm Materia VIII to anything that'll take it, and make sure that each piece of gear that doesn't come with SkS has 120 points of SkS melded onto it, it might work out fine in the speed department. Like I said, I'm working on a rotation/opener built around this, and will definitely post it up when I've tested out its effectiveness on the Eulmore dummies.

HOWEVER, the problem is that while you can increase the speed all you like, there will still be two problems. One is getting that GL stack up in lieu of not having Wind Tackle anymore. The second is that you will still have points in your rotation where there will be an opportunity/window to use an oGCD, but none will be there, leading to the rotation feeling a bit "naked" at certain points. This is why I say one oGCD isn't enough because the one that would give a GL stack is just going to fill in where Anatman's server tick cheese is currently sitting (as that will no doubt be patched out sooner or later), and then you have that same problem later on in the rotation. This is why it needs two. The problem with Enlightenment replacing Howling Fist is that HF could be used in single-target rotations without having to sacrifice a tFC, so you could use both. Enlightenment being the new line AoE move sharing the chakra meter, instead of using MP, would have to be used instead of tFC, so it's not an adequate replacement. We need something else that can be used in its stead.

So, until further testing with max speed melds on the Ronkan gear is conducted, we'll have to put that on the backburner for now regarding stat redistribution. I still say that the best and most immediate course of action before we get into all of that is to implement Somersault and Axe Kick since their animations and icons already exist, and their tool tips pretty much fill the existing need, without needing to change anything else aside from their recast timers.

I say, test for that first, since getting into stat redistribution and potency adjustments is a big headache which might not be necessary if we just get these. It's cheap, easy and quick for the dev team to do.

I don't disagree with you there, but I'm just trying to be as realistic as I can be with what the most simple, straightforward and practical/cost effective changes we're likely to get in the immediate future. As much as I'd love a total rework (which this was the opportunity for, what with the battle system changes), it's unlikely we'd be getting any of that before 6.0. So, based on what we have right now, I just feel like getting Somersault and Axe Kick put into PvE would immediately fix the huge glaring problems with the rotation as it is now, and is the quickest short-term solution without doing a deep-dive into hardcore number adjustments for everything, or reworking core aspects of the job.

Everything else is to me a valid talking point but one best reserved for a later date after these more high-priority fixes are implemented in the short term, where we can sit and properly re-evaluate core aspects of the job under microscopic scrutiny. With the immediacy of the Eden raids coming in a week and a half, and the Savage raids coming two weeks after that, there isn't enough time to deliberate on overhauling the job to that degree, or even considering newer traits or heavy rebalancing. It needs something quick, simple and cost-effective in the here and now so MNKs can have a better sense of comfort once the raid hits, and these two oGCDs would provide that. It'd a) give an immediate stack of GL, and b) give you something to do in those windows where you'd be bored with nothing else to push since when they culled stuff from SB, they took a tad too much off the top. It's these oGCDs that help these jobs get a sense of speed and variety when woven in-between the GCDs, after all.

For now I think this is the best, simplest, most effective and inexpensive course of action we can get in the near future to alleviate the major woes, which are points a) and b) written above. MNK will feel faster if it can have more to weave with, even with the GCD slowed down with certain gear and melds. But it needs that and something to give it a GL stack. So this is my recommendation.

Originally Posted by ConfusedLemur

Honestly... this may be controversial; but just remove Greased Lightning speed increase and make that a permanent trait. Keep the stack building for damage, but make the speed an 'always-on' thing

Have we really dropped to this point where were saying, hey, let take out everything Monk was about and just start again.

Originally Posted by Chill_Ghost

1. Wind Tackle - Upgrades Shoulder Tackle into Wind Tackle. Wind Tackle grants Greased Lightning. Maximum Charges: 2
2. Enhanced Mantra - Mantra will also now give Chakra Focus to all players. Chakra Focus Effect: 30% chance you open a chakra when party members under this effect executes a spell. Duration 15 seconds
3. Enhanced Fists of Earth - Fists of Earth will halt the expiration of Greased Lightning. You cannot gain anymore Greased Lightnings or Chakra while in Fists of Earth
4. Chakra Overflow - Upon using a skill that requires Chakra you have a 50% chance to gain Chakra Overflow. Chakra Overflow Effect: Six-Sided Star's recast timer isn't applied to all other weaponskills. Effect expires on use. Duration 15 seconds

With these changes, I'd think it would fix a decent amount of Monks problems. It would fix our ability to get stacks of GL and lets us use Tornado Kick again, gives more chakra that isn't relied upon our party having physical dps, lets use hold GL while doing moving mechanics and in between pulls, and gives a reason to use Six-Sided Star more often. I would say there's 3 abilities I'd like to tweek though. First would be Brotherhood needs to just hit all party members. There's always some Bard or Machinist that loves to be at max range. Twin Snake's damage buff needs to be like twice as long. It's annoying to have to constantly use our weakest move to keep that buff up. Finally Fist of Wind needs to have a passive 5-10% skill speed added in. GL4 should be significantly faster than GL3.

I really dig all of these changes. It doesn’t change the rotation much at all but simply adds some more gl management tools. I think chakra right now is fine but it is a bummer that it doesn’t really have any interaction with our other abilities. I think chakra overflow is a GREAT idea. Adding use of sss and adding interaction for our chakra spenders. Well done.

As for the fist of earth trait, this could be hit or miss. It would definitely add a lot of fist dancing to monk, with switching from fire to wind already being a thing, but I would be a fan of it. Just switch to earth between pulls.

I really hope square sees this. These are really great changes. I am a huge fan of the monk rotation right now, it is fairly simple but the positionals really keep you on your feet. The biggest issue atm is gl management. It has such a short timer and takes a while build up. These changes help the problems while keeping the rotation Fairly similar.

COME ON SQUARE MAKE THIS HAPPEN