The Problem with Paladin

[Kaeko]

First off, glad to see both Seiken and my testing referenced here for stat debates. That's what they were done for so very happy to see that.

Regarding the HP vs. all other stats debate:

I'll try to be a little more eloquent and "nice" about it, but Treach is basically right. There are 2 situations right now that really matter if you consider the "full party" scenario. These are:

(1) Fighting big bosses (Ifrit, Coincounter, etc.)
(2) Fighting lots of "trash" mobs R55 and below.

In situation 1 where we are fighting big bosses, most stats will not even come close to the benefit of straight HP stacking as Treach mentioned. This has to do with increasing returns as you near certain caps and the fact that on such high end mobs, getting anywhere near this cap is inconceivable. DEF and VIT are the best examples are this - I calculated that it would take about 1900 DEF to hit the damage floor on Ifrit. To start seeing significant gains in DEF stacking, you'd probably need to get to at least about 1300 to see any real difference per point. Right now, anything above 1000 is already considered rare territory in 1.21.

In situation 2 where you fight lots of "trash" mobs, it doesn't really require any sort of tank at all. You'd be better off just simply spamming AoE from a hoard of BLMs or WARs (which could also double as tanks...). You can make the argument that, yes, DEF would have much greater returns on these lower level mobs because you can get near the damage floors on them; however, does it really matter when you can just AoE burn them all in about 15 seconds?

There may be situational merit to a high end DEF or damage mitigation build, but for the most pressing and difficult situations SE has presented to us thus far, HP will win by a very significant margin. So if you want to go out of your way to find a situation where an "all DEF" stack PLD build is optimal, I'm sure you could find one. However, to argue that because such an example exists does not change the fact that in the vast majority of situations (especially difficult situations), simple HP stacking blows everything else out of the water.

Poor PLD

[Peptaru]

Yep, poor pld, and while what you say is true i wasn't contradicting it. I take issue only with the retarded statement that stats are useless. As you pointed out they are not useless. Less effective, impractical in large situations, oknp. But they don't "do nothing". All the new players read these dumb statements and learn nothing about what stats actually do because the internet taught them that they only will ever need HP. a side note: isn't the 1900 def number for ifrit if you have zero vitality? i don't think you can hit 0 vitality. it still would be an unrealistic number when figuring in 320 vit or so, but it wouldn't be 1900.

[Kaeko]

Yep, poor pld, and while what you say is true i wasn't contradicting it. I take issue only with the retarded statement that stats are useless. As you pointed out they are not useless. Less effective, impractical in large situations, oknp. But they don't "do nothing". All the new players read these dumb statements and learn nothing about what stats actually do because the internet taught them that they only will ever need HP. a side note: isn't the 1900 def number for ifrit if you have zero vitality? i don't think you can hit 0 vitality. it still would be an unrealistic number when figuring in 320 vit or so, but it wouldn't be 1900.

The 1900 number was based on if you had 178VIT. If you want to change this to be if you had 320VIT though, it would drop it to about 1800 DEF needed.

Trying to read both Treach's and your posts with as little bias as possible, I don't think he ever made the statement that the other stats were useless as in "they do absolutely nothing". His point (at least from my view) is that if you are making an optimal tanking build (aka "min/max-ing"), you have to make tough decisions as to which stats you should improve with gear - you can't have everything. So he's not saying all stats other than HP have no benefit - he's saying that the benefit from stacking other stats is so small relative to the benefit of HP, that you would never stack them over HP. Because this is the case, you could say it is "useless" to stack say DEF on high end mobs. And he would be right - it is "useless" in the sense that a much better build exists.

[SwordCoheir]

@: Op

Adjusting abilities would probably be the best method of action, but they would need to happen to PLD specific abilities to make a distinct difference between PLD and GLA.

Here are some thoughts or ideas.
Spirits Within- Add a Enmity spike bonus when comboing.
Holy Succor- Adding a major but short lived defense or stoneskin effect on target.
Divine Veil- Slowly Gain Enmity when Regen is cast on you or gain Enmity equal to the amount Cured when it's effect is proced.
Cover- Procure Enmity gained by the target players actions while in effect, or greatly increase defense while covering an ally.
Hollowed Ground- Instead of just an Enmity boost as someone suggested, all active targets become instantly enraged and focused on the player.

If I did take someone else's suggestion I do apologize, I didn't feel like reading 24 pages. XD

[Kiara]

Hi All,

Another point to note about why Warrior is a more popular / better choice for tanking is with the inherent Design Choice for the Warrior's new (and potent) Weaponskill vs. Paladin's new Weaponskill:

• Warrior gets an amazing Combo from their basic Enmity-building Combo Chain! Heavy Swing -> Skull Sunder -> Steel Cyclone (amazing). This combo is the Warrior's main / regular Self Combo that's easy to use and builds Hate / Enmity inherently (with Heavy Swing -> Skull Sunder).

• The Paladin's new Weaponskill (Spirits Within) can only be Combo'd from: Phalanx -> Spirits Within. And Phalanx can only be used off a successful Block. And the Block Rate is pretty low in general.

So inherently - just by a Design choice from the Combat Team - they've set up the Warrior as having a much more desirable and easy-to-use, high damage Combo, *and* it's from the Warrior/Marauder's core Enmity-building Self Combo.


The equivalent branch on Paladin should've been Fast Blade -> Flat Blade -> Spirits Within, since Fast Blade -> Flat Blade is the Paladin's core Enmity building Self Combo.

*And* this is besides the fact that Steel Cyclone is amazing, does very good Damage, and it's AOE Damage. (While Spirits Within is Single Target / Close Range.)

(On a side note, I really like the unique aspect that Paladin gets a Self Combo *from a Block* (there's something cool about that idea), but considering how bad Block Rates are in general (especially on Bosses), and the fact they give Warrior the ability to Self Combo (free / no TP cost) their best, new Weaponskill off of their basic Enmity-building Combo, and it's another reason Paladin isn't as desirable currently.

It's just baffling how Paladin got passed QA and no one felt there were any issues at all with the current Job spec.

I hope we get a hot patch fix soon.

[Arkine]

Hi All,

Another point to note about why Warrior is a more popular / better choice for tanking is with the inherent Design Choice for the Warrior's new (and potent) Weaponskill vs. Paladin's new Weaponskill:

• Warrior gets an amazing Combo from their basic Enmity-building Combo Chain! Heavy Swing -> Skull Sunder -> Steel Cyclone (amazing). This combo is the Warrior's main / regular Self Combo that's easy to use and builds Hate / Enmity inherently (with Heavy Swing -> Skull Sunder).

• The Paladin's new Weaponskill (Spirits Within) can only be Combo'd from: Phalanx -> Spirits Within. And Phalanx can only be used off a successful Block. And the Block Rate is pretty low in general.

So inherently - just by a Design choice from the Combat Team - they've set up the Warrior as having a much more desirable and easy-to-use, high damage Combo, *and* it's from the Warrior/Marauder's core Enmity-building Self Combo.


The equivalent branch on Paladin should've been Fast Blade -> Flat Blade -> Spirits Within, since Fast Blade -> Flat Blade is the Paladin's core Enmity building Self Combo.

*And* this is besides the fact that Steel Cyclone is amazing, does very good Damage, and it's AOE Damage. (While Spirits Within is Single Target / Close Range.)

(On a side note, I really like the unique aspect that Paladin gets a Self Combo *from a Block* (there's something cool about that idea), but considering how bad Block Rates are in general (especially on Bosses), and the fact they give Warrior the ability to Self Combo (free / no TP cost) their best, new Weaponskill off of their basic Enmity-building Combo, and it's another reason Paladin isn't as desirable currently.

It's just baffling how Paladin got passed QA and no one felt there were any issues at all with the current Job spec.

I hope we get a hot patch fix soon.

Also Rampage

The more hits you take the harder your attack gets and your critical hits restore HP.

WAR's
Heavy Swing -> Skull Sunder -> Steel Cyclone Increases enmity by the 1st half of the combo, and then increases crit rate after cyclone and so far I think after tanking ifrit on WAR that Skull Sunder, Fracture and Steel Cyclone always or almost always do a crit hit which in returns gives you back HP.

So you deal damage, tank with your massive HP pool, restore HP and increase enmity just off spamming that one combo.

[Evaddaragon]

@: Op

Adjusting abilities would probably be the best method of action, but they would need to happen to PLD specific abilities to make a distinct difference between PLD and GLA.

Here are some thoughts or ideas.
Spirits Within- Add a Enmity spike bonus when comboing.
Holy Succor- Adding a major but short lived defense or stoneskin effect on target.
Divine Veil- Slowly Gain Enmity when Regen is cast on you or gain Enmity equal to the amount Cured when it's effect is proced.
Cover- Procure Enmity gained by the target players actions while in effect, or greatly increase defense while covering an ally.
Hollowed Ground- Instead of just an Enmity boost as someone suggested, all active targets become instantly enraged and focused on the player.

If I did take someone else's suggestion I do apologize, I didn't feel like reading 24 pages. XD

I just wanted to share my thoughs on these ones :

Spirits Within : Enmity Spike ? Nah. Just shorten the recast time in half. It already does good damage for a Sword WS, and the increased damage from a shorter recast will do just fine. You already have a enmity spike in WS : Fast Blade + Flat Blade. Better yet, its recast is a mere 10 seconds... although you rarely have 1000 TP every 10 seconds, but's that a problem that's not unique to PLD, GLA shares it.

Holy Succor : You already get half of the amount cured by it on another target, and has a shorter casting time than Cura, for about the same MP cost and a slightly better effect (even better with AF). Like I said, at best shorten the recast, but I stand by the statement that it's probably fine as it is.

Cover : Enhanced defense ? You already more or less get that with the AF enhancement. Increased enmity ? Like I said, Cover is meant for emergencies, not as a means to compensate for your lack of capacity to keep hate. I still think increasing range is a better idea.

Divine Veil : I don't necessarily hate the idea, but in its current form, it implies you build enmity as a result of someone else's action since it procs only if someone else cures you. Somehow, I doubt SE will consider that.

Hallowed Ground : We more or less have the same idea, however... when will you actually have to use Hallowed Ground on a group of mobs ? So far, I've used it only on bosses and instances such as final AF quests. Therefore, there usually is only a single target when I use it, and I'm pretty sure this is most people's case.

While I don't really share the same ideas with you, we agree on the most important thing : It is the PLD's abilities that need to be revised. People that suggest modifications to GLA's abilities and traits such as adjusting outmanoeuver will not solve the argument that "PLD has nothing GLA doesn't have". Oh, of course, it would help, but what we are discussing is the Paladin job, not the Gladiator class.

[Treach]

Thanks kaeko, I should be more polite when posting so I apologize for that peptaru. I'm not trying to come off as an elitist asshole, I'm just trying to post accurate and helpful builds/tips.

I know people see HP stacking as a wow thing and don't want wow in ffxiv but even in wow they had phases that changed what tanks used, like togc anub you had to have an offtank with maxed avoidance to pick up 4 adds that reduced your defense every hit requiring you to either dodge, parry or shield block every attack thrown at you. Just because HP is most useful right now doesn't mean SE can't be all "Dev1666: We changed the way damage from monsters is calculated." or fix shield in 1.21a.

I also play whm alot as well as tank every current endgame fight, and I like the breathing room an extra 500-600 HP gives. Just feels safer and two whms can practically out heal any damage done to a tank if enmity isn't an issue.

[Camate]

To all the players who don the gear of the Gallant or just like to look at those who do, I have good news!

In patch 1.21a we will be making adjustments to paladins, mainly focusing on their actions and we will continue to adjust paladin and other jobs moving forward.

[SwordCoheir]

To all the players who don the gear of the Gallant or just like to look at those who do, I have good news!

In patch 1.21a we will be making adjustments to paladins, mainly focusing on their actions and we will continue to adjust paladin and other jobs moving forward.

Best news I've ever woken up too!

/em gives Camate a cookie.