The Problem with Paladin

[HoolieWho]

1. One of my main points, PLD relies heavily on MP to stay alive, yet has no way to recover it on it's own. GLA on the other hand can recover MP, and has better and less specific abilities to keep it alive (such as evasion boosts and instant cures, rather than just cure spells). I simply made some suggestions as to how PLD could have some MP recovery without it being too ridiculous. Outmaneuver is already meant to offer this, but in practice does not.

Do you really rely heavily on your MP to stay alive as PLD? I don't. I rely on a WHM's MP to stay alive. Bolded exaggerations like this don't do anything to help your case in this thread.

[LicontAshontear]

Do you really rely heavily on your MP to stay alive as PLD? I don't. I rely on a WHM's MP to stay alive. Bolded exaggerations like this don't do anything to help your case in this thread.

^ what he said. If you are RELYING on your own heals to stay alive, your healer sucks.

I just got done doing Cutters Cry as war with 4k hp, compared to pld with 3.2k, virutually same amount of damage taken, but had AoEs to help with Adds, etc etc.

What truly needs to happen to PLD is this:

1: PLD gets either major increase to block rate or they get the BLOCK ability back (remember how good that was?)
2: PLD needs to get like a +150 defense boost to make any sort of realistic difference in damage mitigation.
3: PLD needs to have more or same HP as a war (srsly wtf is SE thinking having a tank have less HP than a friggin DD, monkeys work for SE i swear)
4: PLD needs reduced cast time on Holy Succor by only 1-2 seconds to make it a viable option for tanking multiple mobs (as it stands I dont ever cure myself, there is no point, interupted interupted interupted)
5: PLD AF needs to be reworked into something useful, right now I don't use it because it is completely backwards.

^ just my opinion. feel free to leave feedback.

[Phobos]

Do you really rely heavily on your MP to stay alive as PLD? I don't. I rely on a WHM's MP to stay alive. Bolded exaggerations like this don't do anything to help your case in this thread.

As I have stated before, I only really use my cures when my WHM has informed me they won't be curing me for whatever reason. The "MP issue" i'm stating is merely in comparison to GLA - all of PLD's self-sustainability moves (aside from Aegis Boon, which both GLA and PLD get) require MP. GLA on the other hand has plenty of different moves that don't require MP, and can also recover it itself. I did mention the uselessness of PLD having cures (in the current state they are in) in my 3rd point.

This effectively nerfed Paladin's ability to hold threat with cures because more often than not the Paladin's own heal won't hit themself until their healer has already topped them off. Since many boss mechanics can take half a tank's HP off, no healer is going to let a tank ride at 80% hp for the tank to top themselves off for more enmity.

As Riaayo mentions (and I mentioned in point 3), PLD curing itself now suffers from good WHMs. Due to it's low HP and lack of damage reduction, PLD essentially needs to be topped off frequently. This is the primary role of the healer, so it's no surprise when you go to cast Holy Succor (especially noticeable with it's longer casting time) on yourself and cure for 0. I like some of Riaayo's suggestions, and thought that addition to FFXI was fairly solid.

My point here is that all this adds up to switching from GLA to PLD loses some key utility moves (free heal, force evade, etc) and gains healing magic which is rendered nearly useless under normal circumstances. Sure, succor is meant for others, but for me at least, the WHM typically just cures others before I can as well (and everyone has a way of curing themselves at this point).

Very interesting topic to the OP BTW.

What I am curious about is that since the jobs were meant to define a certain role in a PARTY
if Paladin is not "Working as intended"

I would assume since Gladiator is designed around solo play, that it would work well at all the points you listed
(MP Recovery, Second Wind, Feather Foot etc)

Since Paladin is meant for Party play, it will only be optimal in a party setting. As well, I'm not sure that
Paladin was actually listed as an UBER TANK that some think it should be.

1. Cover (Protect Ally)
2. Skill where if the PLD is healed, others around it are healed (Protect Ally)
3. Healing an Ally heals the PLD

While it can't take a beating that the WAR can take, what it can do is protect other party members.
Even the Glad can't protect allies as well PLD, but it is a slightly better Tank.

MP issues - since it should be in a party with BRD anyways, "Working as intended?"

Let's hear some more posts on how you feel on this topic

You mention Cover and Divine Veil. Personally, the use of cover is very limited as I've haven't had many issues with hate that a Provoke/Flash couldn't fix (aside from having a WAR in the party). It has been mentioned by other posters as well that cover is essentially useless right now (someone mentioned they used it on great buffalo, someone responded saying provoke just got hate back fine). Divine Veil is utter garbage. WHM already gets regen, and while this stacks with it, it relies on a somewhat clunky predictive system where you need to be guessing that the WHM will cure you soon, and that you'll be taking damage after that (I tried it in Ifrit - after having the WHM trigger it, Ifrit starts running around). The suggestion that it hits others around the PLD often in regular end-game party play actually means it only hits the PLD (it's quite rare for others to be near them - look at the distance difference from just the front of Ifrit to the back of Ifrit, for example).

I would argue GLA can protect others just as well as PLD, if not better. GLA can protect itself, and can use cure more often than a PLD can due to MP recovery. Even if the GLA is just healing itself, the enmity over time and freedom that gives to a WHM contributes to overall party security. PLD get's nothing in terms of enmity generation over GLA, which I would have actually understood (sacrificing survivability for being able to hold hate that much better to make up for WAR's epicness).

You mention BRD - as I keep addressing (and did in my OP) GLA can have a BRD in it's pt as well. This GLA is less reliant on one song (ballad) and could perhaps request a different one (DD power for more enmity, regen to make things easier) if they can't find a use for the extra MP. I would say reliance on a specific job should not be "working as intended". As I've said before, parties already rely on having to find a WHM and a tank (I really hope WAR tanking doesn't get nerfed, but PLD tanking gets buffed) - I personally don't want to also HAVE to find a BRD for everything I do.

In my opinion, for things short of the equivalent of HNM and longer "farming" type events (as in things like Dynamis in FFXI) I don't think BRD should be required. BRD in most cases should be a boost that speeds things up and makes everything go smoother. Since GLA and PLD can do almost the same thing (personally I feel as though the abilities PLD loses are better than the ones it gains for tanking anyway), and PLD needs a BRD where GLA would benefit from but not rely on a BRD.

[Judge_Xero]

You mention Cover and Divine Veil. Personally, the use of cover is very limited as I've haven't had many issues with hate that a Provoke/Flash couldn't fix (aside from having a WAR in the party).

Divine Veil is utter garbage. WHM already gets regen, and while this stacks with it, it relies on a somewhat clunky predictive system where you need to be guessing that the WHM will cure you soon. The suggestion that it hits others around the PLD often in regular end-game party play actually means it only hits the PLD (it's quite rare for others to be near them - look at the distance difference from just the front of Ifrit to the back of Ifrit, for example).

GLA can protect itself, and can use cure more often than a PLD can due to MP recovery. Even if the GLA is just healing itself, the enmity over time and freedom that gives to a WHM contributes to overall party security. PLD get's nothing in terms of enmity generation over GLA, which I would have actually understood (sacrificing survivability for being able to hold hate that much better to make up for WAR's epicness).

BRD

So I highlighted all the nice points you listed that further show that PLD is only a support tank and not a main tank.

You can pretty much forget any issues with MP on PLD. Playing as a support Tank, they most likely wouldn't run into MP issues as they are not constantly trying to hold hate and heal themselves.

SE - We will create a job system to give players a definate role during party battles

Players - Oh great

PLD ='s Support Tank
WAR ='s Main Tank
BRD ='s Party Support and buffs (DD)
ETC.

[LicontAshontear]

one thing that I think should be done is reduce the casting time of holy succor. as it stands right now i just tank with my face and dont cure cause i get interupted constantly. holy succor should cast faster so less chance of interupt.

my 2 cents to help improve pld

[Madruk]

Gladiator will pretty much be put on the wayside once darklight becomes more common. The complaint of PLD vs. WAR still stands though. The PLD's new abilities pale in comparison to the damage, survivability, and enmity of the WAR's.

[Digirotta]

A block rate materia would be pretty sweet. Or WAY better magic resistance. For starters.

Surely WAR is pretty efficient tanking multiple mobs at time, due to his AoE's and enm+ skills, and i really love it, but at least PLD's should excell in boss fights, tanking single targets. They wield shields, for crying out loud, let us use them!

What has been said before, that this issue is being looked upon, please DO NOT start gimping WAR again. That's really not the way to go. Instead, make the GLA/PLD a better meat shield -.-'

[AlphaDragoon]

A block rate materia would be pretty sweet. Or WAY better magic resistance. For starters.

Surely WAR is pretty efficient tanking multiple mobs at time, due to his AoE's and enm+ skills, and i really love it, but at least PLD's should excell in boss fights, tanking single targets. They wield shields, for crying out loud, let us use them!

What has been said before, that this issue is being looked upon, please DO NOT start gimping WAR again. That's really not the way to go. Instead, make the GLA/PLD a better meat shield -.-'

I agree. Buffing Paladin is the way to go, not nerfing Warrior.

I think if they boosted defense to a significant amount for the loss in HP, made blocks happen way more often and gave Paladins a way to recover their MP, then they'd be fine.

[Riaayo]

I'll go ahead and throw out the problems I see with Paladin as of 1.21

Firstly, 1.21 "fixed" cures overhealing (healing a target for more hp than they were lacking). This effectively nerfed Paladin's ability to hold threat with cures because more often than not the Paladin's own heal won't hit themself until their healer has already topped them off. Since many boss mechanics can take half a tank's HP off, no healer is going to let a tank ride at 80% hp for the tank to top themselves off for more enmity.

Next is Defense. I've seen evidence that Defense has scaling returns once you near the damage floor for a monster. The problem is that that damage floor is far too high for bosses such as Ifrit (from what I understand one would need 1900 defense to hit Ifrit's damage floor and see their defense actually knock significant amounts of damage off). I am under the impression that Paladin is supposed to be a tank which tanks through enmity generated by abilities and self cures and utilizes higher defense and damage mitigating abilities to take less damage despite its lower HP than a Warrior. Warrior is supposed to tank with higher damage and a larger hp pool, but takes more damage from attacks. This is not how FFXIV currently operates. Your only viable defensive stat in the game at the moment is HP: defense does not do enough, nor do Paladin's abilities. Do you think people would pick a Warrior tank over a Paladin if they both held the same amount of threat while Paladin was taking 1/2 or 1/4th the damage the Warrior did?

Following that, I'm not sure what I can say about AoE tanking other than Warrior is far superior in this too. I do, however, feel that it is actually appropriate for a warrior to be better at holding multiple monsters as it is a separating factor in the tanks abilities. However, when you introduce lots of multiple-mob fights and party grinding, Paladin really gets left in the dust for the superior AoE tank.



A fix in my eyes for the overhealing problem would be a trait reminiscent of a later White Mage trait which made their cures apply stoneskin to the target. Essentially, why not change a Paladin's self-heals into a sort of shield heal which would heal them for a certain amount of HP, but if it caused any over healing that lost healing would be converted into a stoneskin-like shield that would absorb that much extra damage, and would cause full enmity generation even if "overhealing" occurred. I would say not to let a Paladin's heals apply this shield to anyone other than themselves, however. This would not only fix Paladin's threat generation through healing, but also give it further damage mitigation.

With Defense, the damage floor needs to be adjusted where well-geared Paladins can achieve or "cap" defense for a very solid amount of damage reduction, while a well geared Warrior should be able to come close but not achieve it. You can decide for yourself if you want Monk to be able to get close to that and tank, or be an evasion tank, or not able to tank at all. Stats such as Defense and Block need to actually matter enough to where people will materia for them or use food, rather than HP being the wonder-stat for tanks. If HP decides the better tank, nobody will ever use Paladin over Warrior.

Finally, there needs to be some type of balance for Paladins being useful in multiple-mob situations. I really think the trade-off here is a Paladin should be fully capable of holding hate on multiple monsters as much as a Warrior does and take less damage, while a Warrior can hold hate on multiple mobs, take more damage, but deal lots of damage to those monsters and kill them quickly. If you balance it that way, you'll drop down to preference... though in the end even on a single target mob, if you have both tanks surviving the same and holding threat, you'll take the one that does more damage no?



Hopefully this has decently outlined some of the big problems I see with Paladin, and is mildly useful to somebody (preferably the Dev team, though I doubt with my luck they'll ever stumble across anything I post).

[Shiggysonson]

I'll go ahead and throw out the problems I see with Paladin as of 1.21

Firstly, 1.21 "fixed" cures overhealing (healing a target for more hp than they were lacking). This effectively nerfed Paladin's ability to hold threat with cures because more often than not the Paladin's own heal won't hit themself until their healer has already topped them off. Since many boss mechanics can take half a tank's HP off, no healer is going to let a tank ride at 80% hp for the tank to top themselves off for more enmity.

Great post. The idea with the shield on overheals is a great idea especially since paladins get an HP nerf. It would nicely cover this weakness.

I do agree that paladin AoE hate is weak. I think they should lower the cooldown and effectiveness of wardrum. Something like a ten second cooldown and half the hate it builds now would make it really nice.