The Problem with Paladin

[Klive]

I don't even see the paladin as a tank job, to be honest. The warrior abilities are so much better for holding threat. Warriors had damage reflection, two enmity abilities, and 15 min that get the warrior a ton of threat. Warriors also have, generally, 1000 more hp. Warrior, in my opinion, in the tank class.

Paladins actually block normal monsters, have an AoE taunt, and support abilities; this say support off-tank to me. Lets go down the paladin ability list.

Cover - Almost useless as a main tank. If you have to use this on a boss while main tanking... something went really wrong. As an off tank, this has lots of uses. Throw it on the main tank to give some breathing room, if you get a block you can spirits within the monster. Throw it on the DD/healer when they pull threat from trash spawned monsters. Cover works great when paired with sacred ground making the main tank invincible. In short, cover is much more useful as a off tank than main.

Divine Veil - Useful as main tank... if people are actually around you, but main tanks generally don't have anyone around them. But as an off-tank support, you are next to the tank or collecting trash spawn monsters next to the DD. Divine Veil is much more useful off-tanking and supporting than main tanking.

Holy Succor - A heal that is more powerful when used to heal someone besides yourself. If this was a main tank ability, it would be more powerful when used on yourself. As a off-tank support you get much more benefit from it. Off-tank should be near the tank, so he will be tanking damage as well; but not as much. Holy Succor heals you for heals you for half the amount, so when used on the tank if keeps you next to him and supporting the tank.

Spirits Within - WS that combos off phalanx, which needs a block. We have around discussed how you do not block bosses. Throwing cover with a Aegis Boon can get you your needed combo. This ability is much more useful rounding up trash monsters then bosses.

Scared Ground- Paladin's only, arguably, tank ability. It is on a 15min cooldown and mixes well with cover. This one is actually just as good as a tank as an off tank. This only one skill that really helps the paladin tank and the cooldown is too long.

GLA ability

Flash - Insta-cast AoE taunt with blind. Better for rounding up trash spawn monsters as an off tank.

War Drum - AoE taunt after a block. Well, you rarely block on bosses and it is AoE. This truely a off-tank ability for trash monsters.

Rampart - The whole party get this buff when you use it. You can use this to support the main tank and lower his damage. Sounds like a an off-tank support ability to me.

Outmaneuver - Gives Tp and Mp off block. You don't block boss monsters, but you do block trash monsters! Helping you off-tank and keep you mana up without a bard.

CNJ - Cross Skill

All are buffs and heals.... so support... not hard to see.

Raise - Paladin is one of three classes that can raise. This is useless as a main tank though. Main tanks cannot afford to stop tanking to raise. The off-tank support can run off to raise someone though...


I think I beat this dead horse enough. If you look at the paladin as an off-tank support it is a fantastic job. Warrior is so much better geared for tanking, let him tank.

EDIT: I don't think the paladin needs to be changed as much as how we use and view the paladin.

[Phobos]

I don't even see the paladin as a tank job, to be honest. The warrior abilities are so much better for holding threat. Warriors had damage reflection, two enmity abilities, and 15 min that get the warrior a ton of threat. Warriors also have, generally, 1000 more hp. Warrior, in my opinion, in the tank class.

Paladins actually block normal monsters, have an AoE taunt, and support abilities; this say support off-tank to me. Lets go down the paladin ability list.

Cover - Almost useless as a main tank. If you have to use this on a boss while main tanking... something went really wrong. As an off tank, this has lots of uses. Throw it on the main tank to give some breathing room, if you get a block you can spirits within the monster. Throw it on the DD/healer when they pull threat from trash spawned monsters. Cover works great when paired with sacred ground making the main tank invincible. In short, cover is much more useful as a off tank than main.

Divine Veil - Useful as main tank... if people are actually around you, but main tanks generally don't have anyone around them. But as an off-tank support, you are next to the tank or collecting trash spawn monsters next to the DD. Divine Veil is much more useful off-tanking and supporting than main tanking.

Holy Succor - A heal that is more powerful when used to heal someone besides yourself. If this was a main tank ability, it would be more powerful when used on yourself. As a off-tank support you get much more benefit from it. Off-tank should be near the tank, so he will be tanking damage as well; but not as much. Holy Succor heals you for heals you for half the amount, so when used on the tank if keeps you next to him and supporting the tank.

Spirits Within - WS that combos off phalanx, which needs a block. We have around discussed how you do not block bosses. Throwing cover with a Aegis Boon can get you your needed combo. This ability is much more useful rounding up trash monsters then bosses.

Scared Ground- Paladin's only, arguably, tank ability. It is on a 15min cooldown and mixes well with cover. This one is actually just as good as a tank as an off tank. This only one skill that really helps the paladin tank and the cooldown is too long.

GLA ability

Flash - Insta-cast AoE taunt with blind. Better for rounding up trash spawn monsters as an off tank.

War Drum - AoE taunt after a block. Well, you rarely block on bosses and it is AoE. This truely a off-tank ability for trash monsters.

Rampart - The whole party get this buff when you use it. You can use this to support the main tank and lower his damage. Sounds like a an off-tank support ability to me.

Outmaneuver - Gives Tp and Mp off block. You don't block boss monsters, but you do block trash monsters! Helping you off-tank and keep you mana up without a bard.

CNJ - Cross Skill

All are buffs and heals.... so support... not hard to see.

Raise - Paladin is one of three classes that can raise. This is useless as a main tank though. Main tanks cannot afford to stop tanking to raise. The off-tank support can run off to raise someone though...


I think I beat this dead horse enough. If you look at the paladin as an off-tank support it is a fantastic job. Warrior is so much better geared for tanking, let him tank.

EDIT: I don't think the paladin needs to be changed as much as how we use and view the paladin.

Your interpretation, however, does not match the intention of the dev team when creating paladin. It was not intended that WAR would tank and PLD would off-tank/support (Hell, WAR has an ability that reduces it's defense). It was intended that PLD be the tank, and perhaps WAR as a viable "If the PLD dies I wont fall down in 3 seconds" tank. Kyri's post right before yours sums it up best I feel.

PLD is useless compared to even GLA, as it becomes less survivable and more like a secondary healer that can take some hits if your war dies.

Your assertion that we should just look at PLD differently is completely wrong. You could even say because GLA gets SR it can support better than PLD can. PLD is a very underpowered job. The dev's mentioned multiple times would be, as Kyri paraphrased "the solid rock upon which the party's defense is founded". Just because it is not that at this point does not mean we need to reevaluate our conception of it, it means it needs to be buffed to the point where that statement becomes true.

[Klive]

Your assertion that we should just look at PLD differently is completely wrong. You could even say because GLA gets SR it can support better than PLD can. PLD is a very underpowered job. The dev's mentioned multiple times would be, as Kyri paraphrased "the solid rock upon which the party's defense is founded". Just because it is not that at this point does not mean we need to reevaluate our conception of it, it means it needs to be buffed to the point where that statement becomes true.

"the solid rock upon which the party's defense is founded"

Thing is, the party's defense does increase with a paladin in it. I'm playing a paladin and have no trouble increasing my whole party's defense with it. I don't speak for the DEV because I'm not them. I didn't attend the meetings where decisions were made. I don't even care. I going with what abilities they have and what the paladin can do. If they change the paladin, I'll change my views with it. For now, I play the paladin, very effectively, as an support off-tank because it works great as one.

[Jenday]

I don't even see the paladin as a tank job, to be honest. The warrior abilities are so much better for holding threat. Warriors had damage reflection, two enmity abilities, and 15 min that get the warrior a ton of threat. Warriors also have, generally, 1000 more hp. Warrior, in my opinion, in the tank class.

Paladins actually block normal monsters, have an AoE taunt, and support abilities; this say support off-tank to me. Lets go down the paladin ability list.

Cover - Almost useless as a main tank. If you have to use this on a boss while main tanking... something went really wrong. As an off tank, this has lots of uses. Throw it on the main tank to give some breathing room, if you get a block you can spirits within the monster. Throw it on the DD/healer when they pull threat from trash spawned monsters. Cover works great when paired with sacred ground making the main tank invincible. In short, cover is much more useful as a off tank than main.

Divine Veil - Useful as main tank... if people are actually around you, but main tanks generally don't have anyone around them. But as an off-tank support, you are next to the tank or collecting trash spawn monsters next to the DD. Divine Veil is much more useful off-tanking and supporting than main tanking.

Holy Succor - A heal that is more powerful when used to heal someone besides yourself. If this was a main tank ability, it would be more powerful when used on yourself. As a off-tank support you get much more benefit from it. Off-tank should be near the tank, so he will be tanking damage as well; but not as much. Holy Succor heals you for heals you for half the amount, so when used on the tank if keeps you next to him and supporting the tank.

Spirits Within - WS that combos off phalanx, which needs a block. We have around discussed how you do not block bosses. Throwing cover with a Aegis Boon can get you your needed combo. This ability is much more useful rounding up trash monsters then bosses.

Scared Ground- Paladin's only, arguably, tank ability. It is on a 15min cooldown and mixes well with cover. This one is actually just as good as a tank as an off tank. This only one skill that really helps the paladin tank and the cooldown is too long.

GLA ability

Flash - Insta-cast AoE taunt with blind. Better for rounding up trash spawn monsters as an off tank.

War Drum - AoE taunt after a block. Well, you rarely block on bosses and it is AoE. This truely a off-tank ability for trash monsters.

Rampart - The whole party get this buff when you use it. You can use this to support the main tank and lower his damage. Sounds like a an off-tank support ability to me.

Outmaneuver - Gives Tp and Mp off block. You don't block boss monsters, but you do block trash monsters! Helping you off-tank and keep you mana up without a bard.

CNJ - Cross Skill

All are buffs and heals.... so support... not hard to see.

Raise - Paladin is one of three classes that can raise. This is useless as a main tank though. Main tanks cannot afford to stop tanking to raise. The off-tank support can run off to raise someone though...


I think I beat this dead horse enough. If you look at the paladin as an off-tank support it is a fantastic job. Warrior is so much better geared for tanking, let him tank.

EDIT: I don't think the paladin needs to be changed as much as how we use and view the paladin.

derp......