The Problem with Paladin

[Alise]

Well, there is more problem to Paladin than what u mentioned here in the OP, you should just add it that WAR is better thank than PLD now, sadly.

[Phobos]

Well, there is more problem to Paladin than what u mentioned here in the OP, you should just add it that WAR is better thank than PLD now, sadly.

I agree - I tried to outline what I could based on what I came up with as the problem with PLD, and I think as the thread developed we got a better idea of everything that was going on here. WAR is definitely the best tank hands down right now and that is an issue for both GLA and PLD. That being said, it is also the case that GLA is better than PLD because of a few things all adding up (which while I would commend anyone who reads all 16 pages of the thread, I'll try to sum up here real quick):

1. One of my main points, PLD relies heavily on MP to stay alive, yet has no way to recover it on it's own. GLA on the other hand can recover MP, and has better and less specific abilities to keep it alive (such as evasion boosts and instant cures, rather than just cure spells). I simply made some suggestions as to how PLD could have some MP recovery without it being too ridiculous. Outmaneuver is already meant to offer this, but in practice does not.

2. One of the primary rebuttals of my argument was that PLD just needs a BRD to give them Ballad, or a THM to give them Sanguine Rite. While this definitely addresses the lack of MP recovery to PLD on it's own, it ignores the fact that both of these methods also work on GLA, allowing for GLA to do more with it's MP. Another common response to this was that this would likely prove risky for a BRD or THM to do in a fight where it would be critical, as they could run in at the wrong time and get hit with some massive AOE that a tank can survive but they cannot.

3. Another point some people started to bring up was that PLD can gain enmity better than GLA. In my opinion, this is not the case. All raw enmity abilities are accessible to both PLD and GLA, and I have yet to see issues with enmity that would require a heavy duty cure to get hate back. Others echoed this. For me personally, this argument is even less valid as I typically run with a WHM that ends up getting cures off faster than me in most cases, or at around the same time. The best use for curing spells I have is when he needs to do something other than cure me, and tells me to keep myself alive.

4. The chatter about abilities aside (about which both sides seem to disagree, and I haven't seen many people swayed in the other direction), the next thing we come to is the loss of HP with a promised defense boost. Unfortunately, and this is one primary reason why WAR beats PLD at tanking right now, PLD's loss of HP results in an unnoticeable gain in defense. This means that where PLD was intended to have this supreme defensive ability at a sacrifice of its HP, which would have worked. If this were the case, PLD's loss of self-sustainability moves would not be as severe, as the idea would be that you're taking less damage overall so putting less strain on your healer(s).

5. As I touched on in my OP, I also feel as though block rate for PLD (and GLA to a degree) is just way too poor. There was a suggestion that the dLvl penalty on block rates is likely too harsh, which is probably the culprit here. My point is this - compare a GLA/PLD to a MRD/WAR, the difference is one uses a one handed weapon and a shield, while the other uses a two handed weapon. This would suggest that GLA/PLD are spending half of their focus on their shield, while in-fact we barely block at all. This coupled with the fact that MRD/WAR can parry as a replacement for blocking, makes shield's just seem rather silly right now. As an extension to this, Outmaneuver is also useless as it does not seem to do much in terms of increasing block rate, and the MP return is rather insignificant when compared to MP costs at level 50.

[HoolieWho]

1. One of my main points, PLD relies heavily on MP to stay alive, yet has no way to recover it on it's own. GLA on the other hand can recover MP, and has better and less specific abilities to keep it alive (such as evasion boosts and instant cures, rather than just cure spells). I simply made some suggestions as to how PLD could have some MP recovery without it being too ridiculous. Outmaneuver is already meant to offer this, but in practice does not.

Do you really rely heavily on your MP to stay alive as PLD? I don't. I rely on a WHM's MP to stay alive. Bolded exaggerations like this don't do anything to help your case in this thread.

[LicontAshontear]

Do you really rely heavily on your MP to stay alive as PLD? I don't. I rely on a WHM's MP to stay alive. Bolded exaggerations like this don't do anything to help your case in this thread.

^ what he said. If you are RELYING on your own heals to stay alive, your healer sucks.

I just got done doing Cutters Cry as war with 4k hp, compared to pld with 3.2k, virutually same amount of damage taken, but had AoEs to help with Adds, etc etc.

What truly needs to happen to PLD is this:

1: PLD gets either major increase to block rate or they get the BLOCK ability back (remember how good that was?)
2: PLD needs to get like a +150 defense boost to make any sort of realistic difference in damage mitigation.
3: PLD needs to have more or same HP as a war (srsly wtf is SE thinking having a tank have less HP than a friggin DD, monkeys work for SE i swear)
4: PLD needs reduced cast time on Holy Succor by only 1-2 seconds to make it a viable option for tanking multiple mobs (as it stands I dont ever cure myself, there is no point, interupted interupted interupted)
5: PLD AF needs to be reworked into something useful, right now I don't use it because it is completely backwards.

^ just my opinion. feel free to leave feedback.

[Phobos]

Do you really rely heavily on your MP to stay alive as PLD? I don't. I rely on a WHM's MP to stay alive. Bolded exaggerations like this don't do anything to help your case in this thread.

As I have stated before, I only really use my cures when my WHM has informed me they won't be curing me for whatever reason. The "MP issue" i'm stating is merely in comparison to GLA - all of PLD's self-sustainability moves (aside from Aegis Boon, which both GLA and PLD get) require MP. GLA on the other hand has plenty of different moves that don't require MP, and can also recover it itself. I did mention the uselessness of PLD having cures (in the current state they are in) in my 3rd point.

This effectively nerfed Paladin's ability to hold threat with cures because more often than not the Paladin's own heal won't hit themself until their healer has already topped them off. Since many boss mechanics can take half a tank's HP off, no healer is going to let a tank ride at 80% hp for the tank to top themselves off for more enmity.

As Riaayo mentions (and I mentioned in point 3), PLD curing itself now suffers from good WHMs. Due to it's low HP and lack of damage reduction, PLD essentially needs to be topped off frequently. This is the primary role of the healer, so it's no surprise when you go to cast Holy Succor (especially noticeable with it's longer casting time) on yourself and cure for 0. I like some of Riaayo's suggestions, and thought that addition to FFXI was fairly solid.

My point here is that all this adds up to switching from GLA to PLD loses some key utility moves (free heal, force evade, etc) and gains healing magic which is rendered nearly useless under normal circumstances. Sure, succor is meant for others, but for me at least, the WHM typically just cures others before I can as well (and everyone has a way of curing themselves at this point).

Very interesting topic to the OP BTW.

What I am curious about is that since the jobs were meant to define a certain role in a PARTY
if Paladin is not "Working as intended"

I would assume since Gladiator is designed around solo play, that it would work well at all the points you listed
(MP Recovery, Second Wind, Feather Foot etc)

Since Paladin is meant for Party play, it will only be optimal in a party setting. As well, I'm not sure that
Paladin was actually listed as an UBER TANK that some think it should be.

1. Cover (Protect Ally)
2. Skill where if the PLD is healed, others around it are healed (Protect Ally)
3. Healing an Ally heals the PLD

While it can't take a beating that the WAR can take, what it can do is protect other party members.
Even the Glad can't protect allies as well PLD, but it is a slightly better Tank.

MP issues - since it should be in a party with BRD anyways, "Working as intended?"

Let's hear some more posts on how you feel on this topic

You mention Cover and Divine Veil. Personally, the use of cover is very limited as I've haven't had many issues with hate that a Provoke/Flash couldn't fix (aside from having a WAR in the party). It has been mentioned by other posters as well that cover is essentially useless right now (someone mentioned they used it on great buffalo, someone responded saying provoke just got hate back fine). Divine Veil is utter garbage. WHM already gets regen, and while this stacks with it, it relies on a somewhat clunky predictive system where you need to be guessing that the WHM will cure you soon, and that you'll be taking damage after that (I tried it in Ifrit - after having the WHM trigger it, Ifrit starts running around). The suggestion that it hits others around the PLD often in regular end-game party play actually means it only hits the PLD (it's quite rare for others to be near them - look at the distance difference from just the front of Ifrit to the back of Ifrit, for example).

I would argue GLA can protect others just as well as PLD, if not better. GLA can protect itself, and can use cure more often than a PLD can due to MP recovery. Even if the GLA is just healing itself, the enmity over time and freedom that gives to a WHM contributes to overall party security. PLD get's nothing in terms of enmity generation over GLA, which I would have actually understood (sacrificing survivability for being able to hold hate that much better to make up for WAR's epicness).

You mention BRD - as I keep addressing (and did in my OP) GLA can have a BRD in it's pt as well. This GLA is less reliant on one song (ballad) and could perhaps request a different one (DD power for more enmity, regen to make things easier) if they can't find a use for the extra MP. I would say reliance on a specific job should not be "working as intended". As I've said before, parties already rely on having to find a WHM and a tank (I really hope WAR tanking doesn't get nerfed, but PLD tanking gets buffed) - I personally don't want to also HAVE to find a BRD for everything I do.

In my opinion, for things short of the equivalent of HNM and longer "farming" type events (as in things like Dynamis in FFXI) I don't think BRD should be required. BRD in most cases should be a boost that speeds things up and makes everything go smoother. Since GLA and PLD can do almost the same thing (personally I feel as though the abilities PLD loses are better than the ones it gains for tanking anyway), and PLD needs a BRD where GLA would benefit from but not rely on a BRD.

[Judge_Xero]

You mention Cover and Divine Veil. Personally, the use of cover is very limited as I've haven't had many issues with hate that a Provoke/Flash couldn't fix (aside from having a WAR in the party).

Divine Veil is utter garbage. WHM already gets regen, and while this stacks with it, it relies on a somewhat clunky predictive system where you need to be guessing that the WHM will cure you soon. The suggestion that it hits others around the PLD often in regular end-game party play actually means it only hits the PLD (it's quite rare for others to be near them - look at the distance difference from just the front of Ifrit to the back of Ifrit, for example).

GLA can protect itself, and can use cure more often than a PLD can due to MP recovery. Even if the GLA is just healing itself, the enmity over time and freedom that gives to a WHM contributes to overall party security. PLD get's nothing in terms of enmity generation over GLA, which I would have actually understood (sacrificing survivability for being able to hold hate that much better to make up for WAR's epicness).

BRD

So I highlighted all the nice points you listed that further show that PLD is only a support tank and not a main tank.

You can pretty much forget any issues with MP on PLD. Playing as a support Tank, they most likely wouldn't run into MP issues as they are not constantly trying to hold hate and heal themselves.

SE - We will create a job system to give players a definate role during party battles

Players - Oh great

PLD ='s Support Tank
WAR ='s Main Tank
BRD ='s Party Support and buffs (DD)
ETC.

[Phobos]

So I highlighted all the nice points you listed that further show that PLD is only a support tank and not a main tank.

You can pretty much forget any issues with MP on PLD. Playing as a support Tank, they most likely wouldn't run into MP issues as they are not constantly trying to hold hate and heal themselves.

SE - We will create a job system to give players a definate role during party battles

Players - Oh great

PLD ='s Support Tank
WAR ='s Main Tank
BRD ='s Party Support and buffs (DD)
ETC.

The problem is this is not how things were "meant to be" and as WAR is actually an incredible DD, it's being the best tank is rather ridiculous.

Quote from SE stating what they intended to happen with PLD (I quoted this earlier in the thread too)

A master of sword and shield, the gladiator is a melee specialist who excels in defense. Though his individual blows do not deal great damage, he is able to deliver them in quick succession, a quality that has earned him a reputation for dependability. The paladin job sacrifices maximum HP, but this is compensated by way of greatly enhanced defense as well as the ability to cast healing magic. Valiant by nature, a paladin can shield his comrades from blows, making him the unyielding rock upon which a party’s defense is built.

The execution of the job does not match the concept.

You are correct in what the jobs roles have become I suppose, but those roles are not what was intended. WAR tanking actually sacrifices it's DD potential by not allowing them to use all of their abilities. The idea should be that a PLD is holding hate off of them so they can use all of their abilities, using cover as a supplement to when this fails.

As an Alchemist I would love to see people buying up Ethers for their MP Woes. I mean it's 20% mp regen Max 600. and the cool down is 4 min.

SE put these items into the game for a reason. ^^

While I agree that Ethers are quite nice, and will likely get some. I feel as this should not fall under the "need" category but more the "want/emergency" category. I would think that these are starting to work more as potions work in single player FF games, so perhaps these will be more useable as the price-point becomes more reasonable (seems odd spending ~10k per ether, which was the price last I checked).

Actually, paladins block quite a bit on AoE pulls in stronghold. I was able to spam phalanx on each mob to try to hold hate on each, but yea the block rate on bosses is pretty low.

I hear you, but I suppose I just feel like War Drum is also currently useful for enmity generation on bosses, so reducing the enmity given would be a detriment in those situations. AoE stronhold pulls I typically only tank until Steel Cyclone goes off anyway. After that there's usually some black magic going around that results in everything getting killed.