The Problem with Paladin

[Phobos]

There was a post by a dev in the JP forums concerning adjustments to paladin.

I am very interested to hear this, do you have a link to it? (hoping google will do a good enough job to get a general sense of the message)

Off-topicish rant:
I would be happy if PLD (and GLA to a moderate extent) just received things like what it received in FFXI (hate the comparison but still) - things like Magic Defense and Defense boosts, Shield block rate increase, Reprisal was actually useful compared to Outmaneuver here, etc. Half of the focus of a GLA/PLD is the shield they carry in one hand, and many abilities rely on it, yet outside of the abilities it does virtually nothing. At this point, because you're carrying a glorified accessory, WAR easily beats PLD.

EDIT:
Thread is here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...81%8B%E3%81%84
Just google translating to get the general feel of what people are trying to say, seems to have people talking about the same sort of things - GLA > PLD because of lack of defense and survivability.

google translate of dev post gives a rough idea that they're going to make adjustments based on feedback, or something.

[Shiggysonson]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...821#post588821

It pretty much states that they will be making adjustments to paladins. I just hope they don't rush it. I honestly think they should just make warriors take a lot more damage per hit than they do right now, and give paladins another healing spell. I think it would be nice to see parties with a gladiator tank require two healers to function, and parties with a paladin tank require one healer.

[Phobos]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...821#post588821

It pretty much states that they will be making adjustments to paladins. I just hope they don't rush it. I honestly think they should just make warriors take a lot more damage per hit than they do right now, and give paladins another healing spell. I think it would be nice to see parties with a gladiator tank require two healers to function, and parties with a paladin tank require one healer.

Yeah. Also I know a lot of people suggest BRD is the solution, but I still say a GLA with a BRD > a PLD with a BRD anyway, and BRD should not be required but desired (you could do stuff in FFXI without BRD for instance, but with one things went faster/smoother). I want to see balanced parties but I don't want to be punished for not being able to find a BRD lol.

I feel like PLD is a good start theres just things that need to change so that it's better at tanking than GLA or WAR. You suggest nerfing WAR a little bit, perhaps you are right and it is OP, I'm not sure. I'd rather they bring PLD up in effectiveness to at least match before they consider debuffing WAR much.

[Shiggysonson]

You suggest nerfing WAR a little bit, perhaps you are right and it is OP, I'm not sure. I'd rather they bring PLD up in effectiveness to at least match before they consider debuffing WAR much.

I just think a job/class that can do both DD and tank at the same time is very hard to balance unless they just increase damage mitigation of paladins significantly. This would lead to other problems though, like never having to heal paladins in exp parties due to their insane damage mitigation. The best solution imo is to make it so warriors can take more hits than other DDs, but make it so they aren't strong enough to tank end-game bosses. Just let them tank things like the adds in the ant fight.

I do agree that bards shouldn't be required for everything, but I don't think giving them the best mp recovery skill is making them required. There are other ways of getting MP back to the paladin without a bard like using one thm instead of a black mage or using ethers. If they do give paladins a way to manage their MP better, they may have to give bards a new song as well.

[Phobos]

I do agree that bards shouldn't be required for everything, but I don't think giving them the best mp recovery skill is making them required. There are other ways of getting MP back to the paladin without a bard like using one thm instead of a black mage or using ethers. If they do give paladins a way to manage their MP better, they may have to give bards a new song as well.

I think you're right about the balancing act between PLD and WAR in terms of effectiveness in situations. PLD can't be god-mode in EXP parties by any means, so I think you're right about somehow balancing it. I think this would come into play with a shield more often. Perhaps either PLD or WAR is better at blocking/parrying attacks from multiple lower mobs, whereas the other one is better at focusing on a singular mob to defend against. PLD should still be better than WAR at tanking, though WAR should be able to tank in some situations. I think WAR has too much HP combined with damage mitigation where PLD seems to have less of both for some reason. I think making a shield more effective could be that solution.

I get what you're saying about other ways of getting MP back, but as another poster mentioned on the previous page, this can be difficult for certain fights as you're bringing yourself into harms way to put a buff on the PLD. Also, in the case of the BLM they need to be on THM to do this as you mentioned. I can understand maybe 1 out of a few BLM being on THM, but more to give the other BLM AoE Stoneskin, so it might be tough for them to support the PLD as well. I'm not sure about how close BRD needs to get, and if they'd be in danger giving PLD songs. Perhaps the AoE vs Single Target system should be re-introduced specifically for BRD songs, giving them a similar mechanic as was in FFXI (so the BRD does not have to risk death to buff the PLD).

Again though, even with the ability to give the PLD MP recovery buffs, I still feel as though GLA with those same buffs would surpass PLD as it stands now. If, as the intention was, PLD actually had greater defense than GLA, I could understand using PLD.

[Shiggysonson]

I get what you're saying about other ways of getting MP back, but as another poster mentioned on the previous page, this can be difficult for certain fights as you're bringing yourself into harms way to put a buff on the PLD. Also, in the case of the BLM they need to be on THM to do this as you mentioned. I can understand maybe 1 out of a few BLM being on THM, but more to give the other BLM AoE Stoneskin, so it might be tough for them to support the PLD as well. I'm not sure about how close BRD needs to get, and if they'd be in danger giving PLD songs. Perhaps the AoE vs Single Target system should be re-introduced specifically for BRD songs, giving them a similar mechanic as was in FFXI (so the BRD does not have to risk death to buff the PLD).

Again though, even with the ability to give the PLD MP recovery buffs, I still feel as though GLA with those same buffs would surpass PLD as it stands now. If, as the intention was, PLD actually had greater defense than GLA, I could understand using PLD.

You are right about the risk of making a thm get close to the tank to put up sanguine rite, but disadvantages like this are what makes groups desire a certain job: getting the job done better than other possibilities. This is what the job system is all about in my opinion. In other words, having that job isn't required, but it would the group that much better.

I do hope they add some danger to the support role like having to be positioned close to the tank at times. Tactics and skill to do the job well is always fun. The reason I like support roles so much is because when you see someone do it really well, the group just goes so much better.

I said this in another post already, but I'll say it again. If paladins aren't doing better than gladiator even with a lot of MP, then the problem are the spells, not the limited MP. One change they can change that would be pretty cool is adding an MP cost to spirits within and a "heals the party for the damage done."

[syntaxlies]

There is just no comparison to Sanguine Rite in a boss fight. The difference is between virtually unlimited MP that you can Cure/Stoneskin yourself constantly and about 10 Holy Succor or 20 Cure. It's unrealistic for others to Sanguine tank for these fights where it's needed most since getting anywhere close risks getting one shot instantly, especially with BLM's 2200 hp.

A black mage cannot sanguine rite another player. To say its unrealistic is to say the idea of bard is unrealistic.

[syntaxlies]

皆さん、こんばんは。
Good evening everyone,

取り急ぎご報告です。
特にフィードバックの多いナイトについては、皆さんからこれまでいただいたフィードバックを参考にして調整を行います。
なるべく早い時期に調整できるよう対応を進めていますので、今しばらくお待ちください。
For Paladins which we have been receiving lots of feedback, we are going to make adjustments by looking at the feedbacks we have received. We will try to address the issue as quickly as possible to make adjustments so please wait up a bit.

フィードバックありがとうございました！
Thanks for the feedback!

[Phobos]

I said this in another post already, but I'll say it again. If paladins aren't doing better than gladiator even with a lot of MP, then the problem are the spells, not the limited MP. One change they can change that would be pretty cool is adding an MP cost to spirits within and a "heals the party for the damage done."

Things like this would be better, actually. The problem I've been trying to point out is that Paladin has a much greater reliance on MP than Gladiator, yet no way to get it back and no compelling reason why the given abilities are better. Holy Succor is nice, but not nice enough to warrant the heavy reliance on MP.

As far as the danger to support roles, I do get that to an extent. There should be some strategy involved like, for instance on Ifrit wait until he starts dashing to run in, buff PLD, and run out. As far as the whole THM thing goes though, it's just annoying the idea that we're working towards a balanced party using Jobs, yet someone is stuck on a class. I suppose that would be the drawback of not getting a BRD.

Still though, as you touched on, even with MP resources being replenished by a BRD, There isn't enough reason to use the MP other than all of your healing skills now require it. Perhaps if casting Holy Succor had a combo bonus with something where when casting it on someone (including yourself) gave a slight magic and physical defense boost for say, 5-10 seconds. Things like this and what you suggested with Spirits Within would do a lot to bolster argument to using PLD over GLA or WAR. As it stands right now, the heavy reliance on MP with no apparent gains over the skills GLA uses combined with the lack of self-MP recovery just hurts the job's already poor performance (compared to WAR, and the lack of defense boost that was promised).

[Treach]

How come NA players never get direct responses to stuff like this? All we ever get is one of the three random mods posting vague hints at stuff that just further escalates topics into disarray.