The Problem with Paladin

[AreeyaJaidee]

Nope. This is the light I'm trying to look at PLD in, yet it fails to hold up to what it seems their intention was.

I still don't see how PLD fails as a tank. I've been testing it for awhile now and no issues at all so far.

[syntaxlies]

One thing I can agree with is all the jobs have only a difference of 10 stat points, I think we all know how much difference that makes.

[psykhaotic]

Hmm, how about this: Gladiators are better for tanking and self-preservation, while Paladins are better for tanking while protecting others?

I do agree that PLD could use a few tweaks to improve some skills a bit, but maybe it's how we define the role of the PLD tank that needs to be reevaluated as well? Most (if not all) of the posts I'm seeing here is about using Holy Succor on yourself, when it looks like its purpose is to preserve others (while simultaneously benefiting yourself).

[Phobos]

I still don't see how PLD fails as a tank. I've been testing it for awhile now and no issues at all so far.

I don't know what you've been using it on, but so far I see very little gains for PLD over GLA, while GLA retains much greater survivability, which is a key aspect of a tank. I think you missed the part where PLD is supposed to have greatly enhanced defense compared to GLA. Instead we just have an HP penalty.

It's like if in FFXI SE made a change where PLD could not sub NIN and had an HP penalty, but don't worry we gave you 10 extra defense to make up for it.

The fact also remains, that even the GLA/PLD comparison aside, WAR beats both by miles in terms of tanking and damage dealing. Again, while I support WAR's ability to tank (we shouldnt have just one class/job that can tank, makes leveling and other general party play more difficult to approach as you rely on having to find a PLD, rather than having to find a PLD or a WAR), WAR should not be the best tank - seeing as PLD is supposed to be a tank.

EDIT: Also, the ability to tank on PLD does not make it a good tank. If we sacrificed self-sustaining abilities for enmity abilities I could understand.

[Phobos]

Hmm, how about this: Gladiators are better for tanking and self-preservation, while Paladins are better for tanking while protecting others?

I do agree that PLD could use a few tweaks to improve some skills a bit, but maybe it's how we define the role of the PLD tank that needs to be reevaluated as well? Most (if not all) of the posts I'm seeing here is about using Holy Succor on yourself, when it looks like its purpose is to preserve others (while simultaneously benefiting yourself).

A good tank will not have to cure others as much as themselves, due to forcing mobs to attack them rather than others.

Yes, there's AOE's and all, but I suppose I'm just used to having a good WHM with me almost constantly.

[Ragz]

For Chimera fight GLA is significantly better than PLD, Sanguine Rite alone is better than anything PLD has; add Second Wind, Featherfoot, extra HP, there really is no comparison. It looks like for anything that Cover is not a significant part of the battle plan (which is everything), GLA is a better tank than PLD.

[tachi]

One thing you can not argue with is PLD has significantly better Oh-shit abilities vs its GLA counterpart, from a short duration invincibility, a spike enmity skill which cures 2 targets for a good chunk of HP with near instant recast, and the ability to cover if you can't get the hate back in time because your out of MP or skills are on cooldown. I feel like PLD is done perfectly where you really have to rely on the group to each do their job and being on PLD gives you a greatly increased enmity threashhold allowing your party go much harder DPS wise and finish off mobs faster.

For Chimera fight GLA is significantly better than PLD, Sanguine Rite alone is better than anything PLD has; add Second Wind, Featherfoot, extra HP, there really is no comparison. It looks like for anything that Cover is not a significant part of the battle plan (which is everything), GLA is a better tank than PLD.

While I agree loosing those skills natively is bad you can get them back through the party system working properly and getting a brd or THM to aoe sanguin rite on you when needed. I do feel the pain of loosing 2nd wind that skill is really a bummer to loose for me probably the hardest to deal without.

If darklight armor is JOB specific then the gear issue really tips the scale in PLD's favor those stats are pretty insane.

[Phobos]

For Chimera fight GLA is significantly better than PLD, Sanguine Rite alone is better than anything PLD has; add Second Wind, Featherfoot, extra HP, there really is no comparison. It looks like for anything that Cover is not a significant part of the battle plan (which is everything), GLA is a better tank than PLD.

Precisely. I feel as though some people have not used PLD in a difficult long lasting fight. Many of the "advantages" people are feeling PLD has really wane as a fight drags on. I personally have no enmity issues on either PLD or GLA, which renders Cover useless and Holy Succor less effective. The fact is, most of your healing should be on yourself, as you should be taking the majority of the damage. Let the WHM decide if its worth sparing MP to cure others after AOE's, or let them heal themselves (through abilities or waiting a few seconds before doing anything else).

In shorter fights, the difference between GLA and PLD is not as noticeable, its when you do these longer drawn out boss fights that it becomes truly apparent. I would bet anyone claiming PLD is better than GLA is just experiencing a side-effect of having a WHM and possibly a BRD as opposed to CNJ.

EDIT:

One thing you can not argue with is PLD has significantly better Oh-shit abilities vs its GLA counterpart, from a short duration invincibility, a spike enmity skill which cures 2 targets for a good chunk of HP with near instant recast, and the ability to cover if you can't get the hate back in time because your out of MP or skills are on cooldown. I feel like PLD is done perfectly where you really have to rely on the group to each do their job and being on PLD gives you a greatly increased enmity threashhold allowing your party go much harder DPS wise and finish off mobs faster.



While I agree loosing those skills natively is bad you can get them back through the party system working properly and getting a brd or THM to aoe sanguin rite on you when needed. I do feel the pain of loosing 2nd wind that skill is really a bummer to loose for me probably the hardest to deal without.

If darklight armor is JOB specific then the gear issue really tips the scale in PLD's favor those stats are pretty insane.

I urge you to use Hallowed Ground as an "oh-shi!" ability on Ifrit. The result could very well be a dead PLD. An instant heal and an evade (to help prevent interrupt) + cure heal HP which work for both physical and magical attacks, and stalls for long enough for a WHM to get that critical cure in.

Also, Holy Succor does have a short recast, but also a massive MP cost, and relatively long casting time for someone getting hit. While you suggest this spike enmity is nice and could be right, we have no testing to prove this theory. I would suggest, however, that the more cures over time you can perform on GLA will outweigh the enmity gained by succor. Enmity at this point isn't even an issue anyway.

You suggest a THM using sanguine rite, though now instead of the PLD having to be on class instead of job, its the BLM. BRD works too but again this just puts more reliance on BRD, and both of these can still be done to a GLA rather than a PLD.

The ability to make up for the drawbacks of PLD through other party members does not make up for it's losses. You're comparing apples to oranges being assisted by bananas. You fail to realize that those same bananas could assist the apples rather than the oranges.

[Shiggysonson]

There was a post by a dev in the JP forums concerning adjustments to paladin.

[Ragz]

One thing you can not argue with is PLD has significantly better Oh-shit abilities vs its GLA counterpart, from a short duration invincibility, a spike enmity skill which cures 2 targets for a good chunk of HP with near instant recast, and the ability to cover if you can't get the hate back in time because your out of MP or skills are on cooldown. I feel like PLD is done perfectly where you really have to rely on the group to each do their job and being on PLD gives you a greatly increased enmity threashhold allowing your party go much harder DPS wise and finish off mobs faster.



While I agree loosing those skills natively is bad you can get them back through the party system working properly and getting a brd or THM to aoe sanguin rite on you when needed. I do feel the pain of loosing 2nd wind that skill is really a bummer to loose for me probably the hardest to deal without.

If darklight armor is JOB specific then the gear issue really tips the scale in PLD's favor those stats are pretty insane.

There is just no comparison to Sanguine Rite in a boss fight. The difference is between virtually unlimited MP that you can Cure/Stoneskin yourself constantly and about 10 Holy Succor or 20 Cure. It's unrealistic for others to Sanguine tank for these fights where it's needed most since getting anywhere close risks getting one shot instantly, especially with BLM's 2200 hp.