The Problem with Paladin

[Reaujien]

All of this is doable on GLA except for Holy Succor, which you mentioned is not that large compared to other abilities for enmity. GLA can also recover MP so it can do more AOE Cures over a long fight than PLD.

Edit: There's that word "threat" again... What's next, toon?

That's not what I said (referring to what's in bold). I said well-placed/timed Holy Succors or SP > Cure generates a great amount of threat on their own, but coupled with (all the other abilities I listed) PLDs can generate a lot of threat in addition to healing. I didn't say one was larger than the other, but only that when used together (healing + other abilities) PDLs can, again, generate a lot of threat.

And, I'm not sure if you knew this but Outmaneuver recovers MP/block on a PLD. Unless I missed something on the patch notes and they changed that (which, I will completely stand corrected if so).

GLA can recover MP on their own with Featherfoot and Sanguine right. However, Featherfoot isn't 100% chance to evade, which means you won't get MP back if you don't evade (and yes, I've seen my Featherfoot buff timer drop to 0 before). And Sanguine Rite costs a good chunk of MP (with consideration to GLAs MP pool), and sometimes the MP you gain back doesn't cover the cost of using it, or the net amount gained is very minute.

I just.. I mean, it sounds like you're having a lot of MP-management issues on PLD compared to GLA, which sucks. I just don't agree with your point of view that GLAs are somehow far superior in management their MP compared to PLDs. One has an advantage over the other, yeah for sure, but I wouldn't suggest one is "better" to use the majority of the time or that one is "useless", or w/e, etc. etc.

BTW, there's a video on youtube of a certain "Dr." (hint hint) fighting the first boss in Cutter's Cry... using a PLD.... without a BRD... and the PLD didn't lose hate once. Again, I think it all just boils down to tactics.

[Phobos]

That's not what I said (referring to what's in bold). I said well-placed/timed Holy Succors or SP > Cure generates a great amount of threat on their own, but coupled with (all the other abilities I listed) PLDs can generate a lot of threat in addition to healing. I didn't say one was larger than the other, but only that when used together (healing + other abilities) PDLs can, again, generate a lot of threat.

And, I'm not sure if you knew this but Outmaneuver recovers MP/block on a PLD. Unless I missed something on the patch notes and they changed that (which, I will completely stand corrected if so).

GLA can recover MP on their own with Featherfoot and Sanguine right. However, Featherfoot isn't 100% chance to evade, which means you won't get MP back if you don't evade (and yes, I've seen my Featherfoot buff timer drop to 0 before). And Sanguine Rite costs a good chunk of MP (with consideration to GLAs MP pool), and sometimes the MP you gain back doesn't cover the cost of using it, or the net amount gained is very minute.

I just.. I mean, it sounds like you're having a lot of MP-management issues on PLD compared to GLA, which sucks. I just don't agree with your point of view that GLAs are somehow far superior in management their MP compared to PLDs. One has an advantage over the other, yeah for sure, but I wouldn't suggest one is "better" to use the majority of the time or that one is "useless", or w/e, etc. etc.

BTW, there's a video on youtube of a certain "Dr." (hint hint) fighting the first boss in Cutter's Cry... using a PLD.... without a BRD... and the PLD didn't lose hate once. Again, I think it all just boils down to tactics.

I don't care about hate, I'm fine with hate. I also have mentioned Outmaneuver quite a bit and how useless it is.

PLD has no MP recovery available to it (no, Outmaneuver does not count, 9MP every few times you use it is nothing more than a bad joke)
GLA has plenty of MP recovery available to it, and access to a free self heal.

I think the problem is more that PLD hasn't gained much over GLA in terms of defense etc (it was supposed to), and the abilities it has access to don't supplement that enough (imho). GLA ends up with better survivability. My issue is that the point of a tank is to keep something attacking you, and not die. PLD gains nothing over GLA for this, and actually loses abilities that help you to not die.

I'll have to take a look at the Cutter's Cry video, but I'm guessing there's less need for healing people other than the PLD, which would make up for this. If the individual fights were shorter, though, this problem would not have come up. We also had a pick up group, though, the quality of which I cannot attest to. I could have just had more pressure on me to use heals because the WHM was busy healing other people that were doing things wrong.

I guess I just found it odd when I was standing there, cycling through my abilities toward the end when the realization hit me that I was out of MP and had no way of keeping myself alive other than a bloodbath that while nice, was not enough. It was just very surprising at the time and strikes me as odd that GLA has just as many enmity tools as PLD, and more survival tools. This would be fine if the buff to defense/damage taken for PLD was better.

[kro]

That's not what I said (referring to what's in bold). I said well-placed/timed Holy Succors or SP > Cure generates a great amount of threat on their own, but coupled with (all the other abilities I listed) PLDs can generate a lot of threat in addition to healing. I didn't say one was larger than the other, but only that when used together (healing + other abilities) PDLs can, again, generate a lot of threat.

And, I'm not sure if you knew this but Outmaneuver recovers MP/block on a PLD. Unless I missed something on the patch notes and they changed that (which, I will completely stand corrected if so).

GLA can recover MP on their own with Featherfoot and Sanguine right. However, Featherfoot isn't 100% chance to evade, which means you won't get MP back if you don't evade (and yes, I've seen my Featherfoot buff timer drop to 0 before). And Sanguine Rite costs a good chunk of MP (with consideration to GLAs MP pool), and sometimes the MP you gain back doesn't cover the cost of using it, or the net amount gained is very minute.

I just.. I mean, it sounds like you're having a lot of MP-management issues on PLD compared to GLA, which sucks. I just don't agree with your point of view that GLAs are somehow far superior in management their MP compared to PLDs. One has an advantage over the other, yeah for sure, but I wouldn't suggest one is "better" to use the majority of the time or that one is "useless", or w/e, etc. etc.

BTW, there's a video on youtube of a certain "Dr." (hint hint) fighting the first boss in Cutter's Cry... using a PLD.... without a BRD... and the PLD didn't lose hate once. Again, I think it all just boils down to tactics.

I think he mentioned that the rate of MP recovery on Outmaneuver was insignificant compared to how much MP spells cost. Also, one of the advantages of Featherfoot is damage avoidance, not just MP recovery. Having it, and especially Second Wind as instant abilities is a fairly reliable panic-button when Sentinel is on cooldown. I know PLD gets hallowed ground, but that's 15 minutes.

I don't think anyone is arguing that PLD is incapable of tanking. It's that PLD is not necessarily any better than GLA while GLA remains more versatile than a PLD.

WAR is better than MRD as a DD-tank. MNK, DRG, and BLM are definitely better as DDs. WHM and BRD are much better at their intended roles while having practically zero downsides over CON and ARC. I would expect PLD to be a little better than it currently is.