The Problem with Paladin

[syntaxlies]

I really could not agree more. I was actually debating the exact thing last night while doing AF battles and new dungeons. To me, there is actually very little difference between Gladiator and Paladin in terms of tanking ability and survivability. I actually think I prefer Gladiator for the exact reasons you mentioned. Gladiator has some ways of restoring MP, a free parry with Foresight, a free dodge + MP recovery with Featherfoot, and Second Wind.

From an equipment/stat standpoint. I thought SE said that Paladin was going to have a defensive boost at the cost of offense when compared with Gladiator. If so, I don't see it. Paladin has approximately 10 more VIT and 10 less STR than Gladiator. As we all know, it takes way more than 10 of any stat to make any sort of noticeable difference. Also, the AF armor is great looking, but other than the +Enmity, there really are no other stats that make any of it better than my single, double or triple melded crafted gear. Even the defense on the AF is exactly the same as that found on the Cobalt Plate set.

I think you are spot on, Phobos. I don't see anything out there right now that Gladiator wouldn't do equally well as Paladin.

Keep in mind that enmity stats = 1% for every +10 enmity. So to have a +5% you need +50 enmity.

[Phobos]

I really could not agree more. I was actually debating the exact thing last night while doing AF battles and new dungeons. To me, there is actually very little difference between Gladiator and Paladin in terms of tanking ability and survivability. I actually think I prefer Gladiator for the exact reasons you mentioned. Gladiator has some ways of restoring MP, a free parry with Foresight, a free dodge + MP recovery with Featherfoot, and Second Wind.

From an equipment/stat standpoint. I thought SE said that Paladin was going to have a defensive boost at the cost of offense when compared with Gladiator. If so, I don't see it. Paladin has approximately 10 more VIT and 10 less STR than Gladiator. As we all know, it takes way more than 10 of any stat to make any sort of noticeable difference. Also, the AF armor is great looking, but other than the +Enmity, there really are no other stats that make any of it better than my single, double or triple melded crafted gear. Even the defense on the AF is exactly the same as that found on the Cobalt Plate set.

I think you are spot on, Phobos. I don't see anything out there right now that Gladiator wouldn't do equally well as Paladin.

Nice to know someone else was feeling the same way. Funny you should mention sacrificing offence for defense, as I have to say I think PLD is a better DD due to Spirits Within. I'm definitely going to try ethers later but regardless of if that is the solution..

It would be nice if Outmaneuver was not entirely garbage.

[Treach]

Block rate still sucks, 120 second cd on spirits and hp has almost no effect on damage like blm burst, barely does more than rage of halone or riot blade. I'll use it at the start of the fight if I feel like chaining it with first aegis boon and clicking to change bar 3....otherwise I just don't use it.

Also not surprised at all that pld has no better defense than glad, was hoping for some kind of -% damage or higher blocking rate. I don't like my HP pool on pld with full AF, very fucking scary.

Don't see the point of divine veil if don't even have melee on some bosses, sure it stacks with regen but who cares if you run two whm. Very situational or minor use I guess.

Holy Succor is nice, AF hands adds a noticeable amount to it. Can really only use it 6-7 times a fight cause I never get ballad or sanguine rite from bards.

Invincible is nice but doesn't save you from magic at all, good thing none of the bosses have magical attacks...oh damn.

Haven't tested or even used cover yet, has anyone tested to see what is enhanced with the AF body?

[Rhen]

Perhaps each of the job stones should give an effect that aids each of the jobs and helps to pigeon hole them even further.

Ex. Paladin: When equipped with the Paladin Job stone, Blocking an attack restores a small amount of MP.
Dragoon: When equipped with the Dragoon Job stone, missing an attack increases the critical chance of the next WS.
Monk: "" Monk "", evading an attack increases attack power for a limited time.

etc. Just something outside of skills and AF to make the jobs more appealing and helps to negate their short comings, making them a more viable option than their class counter parts.

[Phobos]

Block rate still sucks, 120 second cd on spirits and hp has almost no effect on damage like blm burst, barely does more than rage of halone or riot blade. I'll use it at the start of the fight if I feel like chaining it with first aegis boon and clicking to change bar 3....otherwise I just don't use it.

Also not surprised at all that pld has no better defense than glad, was hoping for some kind of -% damage or higher blocking rate. I don't like my HP pool on pld with full AF, very fucking scary.

Don't see the point of divine veil if don't even have melee on some bosses, sure it stacks with regen but who cares if you run two whm. Very situational or minor use I guess.

Holy Succor is nice, AF hands adds a noticeable amount to it. Can really only use it 6-7 times a fight cause I never get ballad or sanguine rite from bards.

Invincible is nice but doesn't save you from magic at all, good thing none of the bosses have magical attacks...oh damn.

Haven't tested or even used cover yet, has anyone tested to see what is enhanced with the AF body?

Agree with almost all of this. I do have my Phalanx right above Aegis Boon and War Drum so its easy enough for me to get off both, even so SW recast is so long that it's virtually useless (hence my suggestion of giving it MP recovery instead of Damage based on HP) - at least that would compel people to use it.

Cover is pretty useless, I don't know what the enhance does but I only use it when my WAR friend takes hate and I'm messing with him.

I agree so much on the loss of HP but gain of nothing in return... This coupled with the other issues just accentuates the problem.

Perhaps each of the job stones should give an effect that aids each of the jobs and helps to pigeon hole them even further.

Ex. Paladin: When equipped with the Paladin Job stone, Blocking an attack restores a small amount of MP.
Dragoon: When equipped with the Dragoon Job stone, missing an attack increases the critical chance of the next WS.
Monk: "" Monk "", evading an attack increases attack power for a limited time.

etc. Just something outside of skills and AF to make the jobs more appealing and helps to negate their short comings, making them a more viable option than their class counter parts.

Even if this was done, PLD block rate is still horrid, so the effect would be useless.

PLD already has a blocking = MP ability, but it is rendered useless by the minimal MP it returns for the 1% of the time you actually block something off of an exp mob (let alone a tough fight).

Aside from Ifrit I also tried Great Buffalo... has anyone done that successfully anytime recently? Seems to hit like a truck on steroids in AOE. WHM could not keep up at all as I was losing 1/3 HP every few seconds. We were only trio but a bit more HP would not have helped, and we were just testing to see how well we could survive which seemed to be not well at all...

[Shiggysonson]

I agree with the need to increase blockrate assuming that there isn't already one in the game that we just don't know about.

I don't agree with giving paladins a better way to manage MP. Leave that role to the bard. Jobs are meant to rely on other jobs to function effectively. If jobs had ways to cover their own weaknesses, other jobs would be out of the job.

[Treach]

I'd rather just play glad if I needed mp instead of relying on someone else to actually pay attention to me.

[syntaxlies]

I'd rather just play glad if I needed mp instead of relying on someone else to actually pay attention to me.

I personally don't find it any different then relying on whm's for cures. Just make sure the bard knows his role and you should be fine.

[Phobos]

I agree with the need to increase blockrate assuming that there isn't already one in the game that we just don't know about.

I don't agree with giving paladins a better way to manage MP. Leave that role to the bard. Jobs are meant to rely on other jobs to function effectively. If jobs had ways to cover their own weaknesses, other jobs would be out of the job.

My issue is that the gains for PLD over GLA are minimal, and being on PLD now requires a BRD, as its the only way to recover MP. I don't want it to be too easy just giving you MP, but as it stands PLD is useless because it cannot recover MP at all. Perhaps I'm just used to games where there was at least some minimal MP/Whateveritisinthatgame recovery for each class on its own, but also multiple classes that could recover MP for others, as opposed to just one.

The problem is on PLD, when you run out of MP you're SOL, as opposed to GLA which can get 2 MP recovery moves, 1 of which is also a stalling move, and one free heal. The only GLA/PLD MP recovery ability (which infers there was an intention for GLA/PLD to be able to recover MP somewhat) is total garbage as it restores about 5% the MP needed to cast cure, and almost never works.

From what I am seeing right now, GLA is better for both solo and party play, which from what I gather what was intended.

Yes, MP shouldn't be easy to recover yourself but you should be able to get some back without the use of meds or a bard - particularly seeing as the only healing moves we have require it.

[Shiggysonson]

I'd rather just play glad if I needed mp instead of relying on someone else to actually pay attention to me.

I'm sorry I probably wasn't clear enough...-_-
My point was there's other ways to improve paladins without completely throwing off the balance of the job system, like giving paladins higher block rate than gladiators.