The Problem with Paladin

[Kiote]

I don't understand how people are still ignoring the fact that JOBS ARE MADE FOR PARTIES.

You are not supposed to be self sufficient while on a job.

You are not supposed to be able to Take all the Damage, Deal all the Damage, Heal all the Damage and Recover MP all at once.

If your Paladin is running out of MP, your Bard is not Doing his job.

[Phobos]

I don't understand how people are still ignoring the fact that JOBS ARE MADE FOR PARTIES.

You are not supposed to be self sufficient while on a job.

You are not supposed to be able to Take all the Damage, Deal all the Damage, Heal all the Damage and Recover MP all at once.

If your Paladin is running out of MP, your Bard is not Doing his job.

I get what you're saying, but the fact is PLD does nothing useful that GLA can't, and even if you have a BRD GLA still recovers more MP than PLD does, and uses it basically the same.

The only thing PLD has over GLA is AF and a bigger heal, which is basically just replacing Second Wind which is now free.

[Shiggysonson]

I get what you're saying, but the fact is PLD does nothing useful that GLA can't, and even if you have a BRD GLA still recovers more MP than PLD does, and uses it basically the same.

The only thing PLD has over GLA is AF and a bigger heal, which is basically just replacing Second Wind which is now free.

Good point. I do think that of all the jobs, the paladin skills are the least "class-changing." A lot of jobs got great skills that are worth losing the cross-class abilities to get. I was hoping paladins would get more shield abilities to focus more on damage mitigation rather than a weaponskill that increases paladin damage a little.

[kro]

I just use "threat" because it's a more general MMO term that everyone gets. I've had cases where I use "hate" and people think I'm insulting them or something.

[Estellios]

If you want to be more self sufficient, try getting ahold of some potions. I was discussing with my PLD friend and it seems like getting into the habit of using Maddening potions (+100 enmity for 1 minute with a 5 minute medicine restriction) is a nice way to start off the fight.

Looking at the abilities, it seems like with a Paladin in a group they are meant to heal the rest of the group either directly with Holy Succor or indirectly with Divine Veil, while the WHM mainly focuses on the PLD and heals anyone that requires any emergency healing. This is even backed up with the AF body seemingly making Cover last its full duration instead of one hit, and especially now that you don't have to get in front of the target for Cover to work you can pop it as its needed.

As far as maintaining your MP, get a competent BRD. WHMs are required for Parties so I think it's fine if BRD is required for tougher fights.

Aside from that, once again, look into new medicines. Mega-Ethers recover 600 MP over time and restrict medicines for 4 minutes. That should be enough for some Holy Succor'ing in the mean time and should go a long way especially with a BRD. And if BRD is enough to keep your MP going just grab some more Maddening potions. You could even have the rest of the group use Nerve Drops at the start of the fight for the -80 Enmity it gives.

Edit: Also, if you have a PLD you can go nuts with MNKs in a group since you can help heal them with your abilities and it justifies having a BRD give the Melee Ballad of Magi. MNK can keep up its ludicrous damage with constant MP recovery so it's win-win for your group.

[Phobos]

If you want to be more self sufficient, try getting ahold of some potions. I was discussing with my PLD friend and it seems like getting into the habit of using Maddening potions (+100 enmity for 1 minute with a 5 minute medicine restriction) is a nice way to start off the fight.

Looking at the abilities, it seems like with a Paladin in a group they are meant to heal the rest of the group either directly with Holy Succor or indirectly with Divine Veil, while the WHM mainly focuses on the PLD and heals anyone that requires any emergency healing. This is even backed up with the AF body seemingly making Cover last its full duration instead of one hit, and especially now that you don't have to get in front of the target for Cover to work you can pop it as its needed.

As far as maintaining your MP, get a competent BRD. WHMs are required for Parties so I think it's fine if BRD is required for tougher fights.

Aside from that, once again, look into new medicines. Mega-Ethers recover 600 MP over time and restrict medicines for 4 minutes. That should be enough for some Holy Succor'ing in the mean time and should go a long way especially with a BRD. And if BRD is enough to keep your MP going just grab some more Maddening potions. You could even have the rest of the group use Nerve Drops at the start of the fight for the -80 Enmity it gives.

Edit: Also, if you have a PLD you can go nuts with MNKs in a group since you can help heal them with your abilities and it justifies having a BRD give the Melee Ballad of Magi. MNK can keep up its ludicrous damage with constant MP recovery so it's win-win for your group.

As far as the enmity meds, no issues with enmity for me right now but I'll keep it in mind, seems like a decent boost.

The whole BRD thing, I just find it odd that we're now requiring another job in the mix. Yes it's nice to have diversity but when you need a BRD for mp recovery, and BRD is the only job that gives others MP recovery, you run into issues with setting up parties.

To me, PLD has gained nothing in terms of enmity generation or survivability over GLA. GLA can do everything PLD can and more, aside from Holy Succor, which is a bit of an MP sink regardless. PLD actually seems to have gained more healing and damage dealing potential than tanking potential.

Edit: I realize you're likely responding to my first post, oh which my opinion has changed a bit due to some of these responses. At this point I'm leaning more towards they just need to buff PLD's damage taken compared to GLA. I still think Outmaneuver should be fixed, and adding an MP recovery effect to Spirits Within instead of damage boost would be nice, but the lack of any gains in terms of damage mitigation for PLD just puts GLA and WAR ahead of it right now.

Also, just on the whole BRD thing - people keep saying use a BRD etc, but the fact still remains.

Even with a BRD GLA can recover more MP and use it more often than PLD, thus resulting in a more effective tank even in the case of having a BRD.

[Rogue]

I dont have a problem taking PLD over GLA and have experienced the issues with running out of MP, however..

I personally have found i dont NEED to be throwing cures to keep hate and i dont use holy succor specifically for hate generation.

My philosophy is:

build hate with sentinal-> Provoke, flash, war drum, ws's, rampart

Increase party survivabilty with holy succor and divine veil. I imagine if i have pugs and drgs around me eating aoe they would be thankfull for a regen from divine veil.

I find that the whm over cure me anyway and by the time i finish casting holy succor it cures for 0, so i save it for other party members which are less likely to get a cure so quickly from the healers.

and tell me poping Hallowed ground when the next hit is going to kill you doesnt completely redeem the job

FYI, you can recover alot of MP in the Ifrit fight by putting your sword away and standing still during jumps, but i realise this isnt normally possible.

[Phobos]

I dont have a problem taking PLD over GLA and have experienced the issues with running out of MP, however..

I personally have found i dont NEED to be throwing cures to keep hate and i dont use holy succor specifically for hate generation.

My philosophy is:

build hate with sentinal-> Provoke, flash, war drum, ws's, rampart

Increase party survivabilty with holy succor and divine veil. I imagine if i have pugs and drgs around me eating aoe they would be thankfull for a regen from divine veil.

I find that the whm over cure me anyway and by the time i finish casting holy succor it cures for 0, so i save it for other party members which are less likely to get a cure so quickly from the healers.

and tell me poping Hallowed ground when the next hit is going to kill you doesnt completely redeem the job

FYI, you can recover alot of MP in the Ifrit fight by putting your sword away and standing still during jumps, but i realise this isnt normally possible.

I actually tried going into passive mode, and it didn't do much for me. I personally don't use succor for hate generation, but to supplement the WHM's heals.

I was fine on MP until the WHM ran over, used Chainspell Raise on a BLM that had died, and ran back to his spot. during that short time, since I had no stalling moves or free heals, I had burnt my MP and had no way of recovering it, adding pressure to the WHM. This was the first I had run into an issue with PLD really. The point is though, even though PLD can tank (with the right setup, and perhaps we just had poor players that put too much pressure on the WHM), GLA can do it better. Just thinking about the abilities PLD got, none of them match up to what GLA has access to.

Since PLD has no enmity generation tools GLA doesn't have, and no defensive/survivability moves that GLA doesn't have, it's use as a tank is severely limited. The abilities right now just don't warrant using it over GLA.

I will be using GLA over PLD in most cases at this point, I am just hoping this issue can get addressed. I do consider it an issue as PLD is supposed to be a better tank than GLA, and it is not.

EDIT: Not in response to anyone in particular, but the whole GLA is supposed to be more self-sufficient I get, but it's inherent self-sufficiency is a greater asset to tanking than PLD's gain of a few mediocre abilities and supposedly a minor defense buff.

[Estellios]

Edit: I realize you're likely responding to my first post, oh which my opinion has changed a bit due to some of these responses. At this point I'm leaning more towards they just need to buff PLD's damage taken compared to GLA. I still think Outmaneuver should be fixed, and adding an MP recovery effect to Spirits Within instead of damage boost would be nice, but the lack of any gains in terms of damage mitigation for PLD just puts GLA and WAR ahead of it right now.

I really just think PLD needs increased Block rates and Outmaneuver's MP recovery boosted, like you suggested. From what I understand Spirits Within does a lot of damage (we didn't get many chances to try it out this weekend unfortunately) so it is likely how you are meant to hold hate when your MP is low since damage gives more enmity than healing does. Possibly its recast time could be reduced, but boosting block rates and outmaneuver would combat most of the problems with PLD.

Then again there may just a difference in playstyle required by PLD that we just aren't getting.

[Phobos]

I really just think PLD needs increased Block rates and Outmaneuver's MP recovery boosted, like you suggested. From what I understand Spirits Within does a lot of damage (we didn't get many chances to try it out this weekend unfortunately) so it is likely how you are meant to hold hate when your MP is low since damage gives more enmity than healing does. Possibly its recast time could be reduced, but boosting block rates and outmaneuver would combat most of the problems with PLD.

Then again there may just a difference in playstyle required by PLD that we just aren't getting.

This. Personally I would prefer Spirits Within combo bonus to do something like MP recovery or HP recovery rather than damage, and seeing how it's recast is quite long that doesn't seem too unreasonable. I would be perfectly happy with Outmaneuver becoming useful. Boosted block rate makes sense as well.

I would like changes like this, as I want to use PLD, but I feel as though I'm compelled to use GLA instead. In a party situation you should be compelled to use the Job, which does not seem to be the case right now.