The Problem with Paladin

[Phobos]

That's not what I said (referring to what's in bold). I said well-placed/timed Holy Succors or SP > Cure generates a great amount of threat on their own, but coupled with (all the other abilities I listed) PLDs can generate a lot of threat in addition to healing. I didn't say one was larger than the other, but only that when used together (healing + other abilities) PDLs can, again, generate a lot of threat.

And, I'm not sure if you knew this but Outmaneuver recovers MP/block on a PLD. Unless I missed something on the patch notes and they changed that (which, I will completely stand corrected if so).

GLA can recover MP on their own with Featherfoot and Sanguine right. However, Featherfoot isn't 100% chance to evade, which means you won't get MP back if you don't evade (and yes, I've seen my Featherfoot buff timer drop to 0 before). And Sanguine Rite costs a good chunk of MP (with consideration to GLAs MP pool), and sometimes the MP you gain back doesn't cover the cost of using it, or the net amount gained is very minute.

I just.. I mean, it sounds like you're having a lot of MP-management issues on PLD compared to GLA, which sucks. I just don't agree with your point of view that GLAs are somehow far superior in management their MP compared to PLDs. One has an advantage over the other, yeah for sure, but I wouldn't suggest one is "better" to use the majority of the time or that one is "useless", or w/e, etc. etc.

BTW, there's a video on youtube of a certain "Dr." (hint hint) fighting the first boss in Cutter's Cry... using a PLD.... without a BRD... and the PLD didn't lose hate once. Again, I think it all just boils down to tactics.

I don't care about hate, I'm fine with hate. I also have mentioned Outmaneuver quite a bit and how useless it is.

PLD has no MP recovery available to it (no, Outmaneuver does not count, 9MP every few times you use it is nothing more than a bad joke)
GLA has plenty of MP recovery available to it, and access to a free self heal.

I think the problem is more that PLD hasn't gained much over GLA in terms of defense etc (it was supposed to), and the abilities it has access to don't supplement that enough (imho). GLA ends up with better survivability. My issue is that the point of a tank is to keep something attacking you, and not die. PLD gains nothing over GLA for this, and actually loses abilities that help you to not die.

I'll have to take a look at the Cutter's Cry video, but I'm guessing there's less need for healing people other than the PLD, which would make up for this. If the individual fights were shorter, though, this problem would not have come up. We also had a pick up group, though, the quality of which I cannot attest to. I could have just had more pressure on me to use heals because the WHM was busy healing other people that were doing things wrong.

I guess I just found it odd when I was standing there, cycling through my abilities toward the end when the realization hit me that I was out of MP and had no way of keeping myself alive other than a bloodbath that while nice, was not enough. It was just very surprising at the time and strikes me as odd that GLA has just as many enmity tools as PLD, and more survival tools. This would be fine if the buff to defense/damage taken for PLD was better.

[kro]

That's not what I said (referring to what's in bold). I said well-placed/timed Holy Succors or SP > Cure generates a great amount of threat on their own, but coupled with (all the other abilities I listed) PLDs can generate a lot of threat in addition to healing. I didn't say one was larger than the other, but only that when used together (healing + other abilities) PDLs can, again, generate a lot of threat.

And, I'm not sure if you knew this but Outmaneuver recovers MP/block on a PLD. Unless I missed something on the patch notes and they changed that (which, I will completely stand corrected if so).

GLA can recover MP on their own with Featherfoot and Sanguine right. However, Featherfoot isn't 100% chance to evade, which means you won't get MP back if you don't evade (and yes, I've seen my Featherfoot buff timer drop to 0 before). And Sanguine Rite costs a good chunk of MP (with consideration to GLAs MP pool), and sometimes the MP you gain back doesn't cover the cost of using it, or the net amount gained is very minute.

I just.. I mean, it sounds like you're having a lot of MP-management issues on PLD compared to GLA, which sucks. I just don't agree with your point of view that GLAs are somehow far superior in management their MP compared to PLDs. One has an advantage over the other, yeah for sure, but I wouldn't suggest one is "better" to use the majority of the time or that one is "useless", or w/e, etc. etc.

BTW, there's a video on youtube of a certain "Dr." (hint hint) fighting the first boss in Cutter's Cry... using a PLD.... without a BRD... and the PLD didn't lose hate once. Again, I think it all just boils down to tactics.

I think he mentioned that the rate of MP recovery on Outmaneuver was insignificant compared to how much MP spells cost. Also, one of the advantages of Featherfoot is damage avoidance, not just MP recovery. Having it, and especially Second Wind as instant abilities is a fairly reliable panic-button when Sentinel is on cooldown. I know PLD gets hallowed ground, but that's 15 minutes.

I don't think anyone is arguing that PLD is incapable of tanking. It's that PLD is not necessarily any better than GLA while GLA remains more versatile than a PLD.

WAR is better than MRD as a DD-tank. MNK, DRG, and BLM are definitely better as DDs. WHM and BRD are much better at their intended roles while having practically zero downsides over CON and ARC. I would expect PLD to be a little better than it currently is.

[Reaujien]

EDIT: Also, in response to the other guy. Where did you pick up the word threat? That's a WoW term afaik, FFXI was enmity/hate. I personally just despise the WoW terms...

...ROFL... I mean, just PURE ROFL...

Go figure: I have a differing point of view than you do, and so instead of trying to look at them objectively, you autonomously decide to make a childish ad hominem reply..... LOL oh man... You're definitely touched that's for sure.

[Phobos]

...ROFL... I mean, just PURE ROFL...

Go figure: I have a differing point of view than you do, and so instead of trying to look at them objectively, you autonomously decide to make a childish ad hominem reply..... LOL oh man... You're definitely touched that's for sure.

Okay sure, ignore all the replies I have made to you and take a look at the side-note about your word choice and my aversion to it.

Seriously though, where did people pick that up? I just hate the term almost as much as toon its so grating to my ears I can't even explain why.

Either way, all I'm trying to get at is that PLD has two main purposes

Make the mob attack you.
Don't die.

GLA can do the first just as well as PLD, and the second even better. That is the issue I'm trying to get at. I don't necessarily want PLD to have an infinite MP pool, I'd be fine if it just took less damage. The issue is that GLA can tank better than PLD.

This is all relatively inconsequential right now though, as WAR is by far the best tank right now.

[Estellios]

If you want to be more self sufficient, try getting ahold of some potions. I was discussing with my PLD friend and it seems like getting into the habit of using Maddening potions (+100 enmity for 1 minute with a 5 minute medicine restriction) is a nice way to start off the fight.

Looking at the abilities, it seems like with a Paladin in a group they are meant to heal the rest of the group either directly with Holy Succor or indirectly with Divine Veil, while the WHM mainly focuses on the PLD and heals anyone that requires any emergency healing. This is even backed up with the AF body seemingly making Cover last its full duration instead of one hit, and especially now that you don't have to get in front of the target for Cover to work you can pop it as its needed.

As far as maintaining your MP, get a competent BRD. WHMs are required for Parties so I think it's fine if BRD is required for tougher fights.

Aside from that, once again, look into new medicines. Mega-Ethers recover 600 MP over time and restrict medicines for 4 minutes. That should be enough for some Holy Succor'ing in the mean time and should go a long way especially with a BRD. And if BRD is enough to keep your MP going just grab some more Maddening potions. You could even have the rest of the group use Nerve Drops at the start of the fight for the -80 Enmity it gives.

Edit: Also, if you have a PLD you can go nuts with MNKs in a group since you can help heal them with your abilities and it justifies having a BRD give the Melee Ballad of Magi. MNK can keep up its ludicrous damage with constant MP recovery so it's win-win for your group.

[Phobos]

If you want to be more self sufficient, try getting ahold of some potions. I was discussing with my PLD friend and it seems like getting into the habit of using Maddening potions (+100 enmity for 1 minute with a 5 minute medicine restriction) is a nice way to start off the fight.

Looking at the abilities, it seems like with a Paladin in a group they are meant to heal the rest of the group either directly with Holy Succor or indirectly with Divine Veil, while the WHM mainly focuses on the PLD and heals anyone that requires any emergency healing. This is even backed up with the AF body seemingly making Cover last its full duration instead of one hit, and especially now that you don't have to get in front of the target for Cover to work you can pop it as its needed.

As far as maintaining your MP, get a competent BRD. WHMs are required for Parties so I think it's fine if BRD is required for tougher fights.

Aside from that, once again, look into new medicines. Mega-Ethers recover 600 MP over time and restrict medicines for 4 minutes. That should be enough for some Holy Succor'ing in the mean time and should go a long way especially with a BRD. And if BRD is enough to keep your MP going just grab some more Maddening potions. You could even have the rest of the group use Nerve Drops at the start of the fight for the -80 Enmity it gives.

Edit: Also, if you have a PLD you can go nuts with MNKs in a group since you can help heal them with your abilities and it justifies having a BRD give the Melee Ballad of Magi. MNK can keep up its ludicrous damage with constant MP recovery so it's win-win for your group.

As far as the enmity meds, no issues with enmity for me right now but I'll keep it in mind, seems like a decent boost.

The whole BRD thing, I just find it odd that we're now requiring another job in the mix. Yes it's nice to have diversity but when you need a BRD for mp recovery, and BRD is the only job that gives others MP recovery, you run into issues with setting up parties.

To me, PLD has gained nothing in terms of enmity generation or survivability over GLA. GLA can do everything PLD can and more, aside from Holy Succor, which is a bit of an MP sink regardless. PLD actually seems to have gained more healing and damage dealing potential than tanking potential.

Edit: I realize you're likely responding to my first post, oh which my opinion has changed a bit due to some of these responses. At this point I'm leaning more towards they just need to buff PLD's damage taken compared to GLA. I still think Outmaneuver should be fixed, and adding an MP recovery effect to Spirits Within instead of damage boost would be nice, but the lack of any gains in terms of damage mitigation for PLD just puts GLA and WAR ahead of it right now.

Also, just on the whole BRD thing - people keep saying use a BRD etc, but the fact still remains.

Even with a BRD GLA can recover more MP and use it more often than PLD, thus resulting in a more effective tank even in the case of having a BRD.

[Rogue]

I dont have a problem taking PLD over GLA and have experienced the issues with running out of MP, however..

I personally have found i dont NEED to be throwing cures to keep hate and i dont use holy succor specifically for hate generation.

My philosophy is:

build hate with sentinal-> Provoke, flash, war drum, ws's, rampart

Increase party survivabilty with holy succor and divine veil. I imagine if i have pugs and drgs around me eating aoe they would be thankfull for a regen from divine veil.

I find that the whm over cure me anyway and by the time i finish casting holy succor it cures for 0, so i save it for other party members which are less likely to get a cure so quickly from the healers.

and tell me poping Hallowed ground when the next hit is going to kill you doesnt completely redeem the job

FYI, you can recover alot of MP in the Ifrit fight by putting your sword away and standing still during jumps, but i realise this isnt normally possible.

[Phobos]

I dont have a problem taking PLD over GLA and have experienced the issues with running out of MP, however..

I personally have found i dont NEED to be throwing cures to keep hate and i dont use holy succor specifically for hate generation.

My philosophy is:

build hate with sentinal-> Provoke, flash, war drum, ws's, rampart

Increase party survivabilty with holy succor and divine veil. I imagine if i have pugs and drgs around me eating aoe they would be thankfull for a regen from divine veil.

I find that the whm over cure me anyway and by the time i finish casting holy succor it cures for 0, so i save it for other party members which are less likely to get a cure so quickly from the healers.

and tell me poping Hallowed ground when the next hit is going to kill you doesnt completely redeem the job

FYI, you can recover alot of MP in the Ifrit fight by putting your sword away and standing still during jumps, but i realise this isnt normally possible.

I actually tried going into passive mode, and it didn't do much for me. I personally don't use succor for hate generation, but to supplement the WHM's heals.

I was fine on MP until the WHM ran over, used Chainspell Raise on a BLM that had died, and ran back to his spot. during that short time, since I had no stalling moves or free heals, I had burnt my MP and had no way of recovering it, adding pressure to the WHM. This was the first I had run into an issue with PLD really. The point is though, even though PLD can tank (with the right setup, and perhaps we just had poor players that put too much pressure on the WHM), GLA can do it better. Just thinking about the abilities PLD got, none of them match up to what GLA has access to.

Since PLD has no enmity generation tools GLA doesn't have, and no defensive/survivability moves that GLA doesn't have, it's use as a tank is severely limited. The abilities right now just don't warrant using it over GLA.

I will be using GLA over PLD in most cases at this point, I am just hoping this issue can get addressed. I do consider it an issue as PLD is supposed to be a better tank than GLA, and it is not.

EDIT: Not in response to anyone in particular, but the whole GLA is supposed to be more self-sufficient I get, but it's inherent self-sufficiency is a greater asset to tanking than PLD's gain of a few mediocre abilities and supposedly a minor defense buff.

[Estellios]

Edit: I realize you're likely responding to my first post, oh which my opinion has changed a bit due to some of these responses. At this point I'm leaning more towards they just need to buff PLD's damage taken compared to GLA. I still think Outmaneuver should be fixed, and adding an MP recovery effect to Spirits Within instead of damage boost would be nice, but the lack of any gains in terms of damage mitigation for PLD just puts GLA and WAR ahead of it right now.

I really just think PLD needs increased Block rates and Outmaneuver's MP recovery boosted, like you suggested. From what I understand Spirits Within does a lot of damage (we didn't get many chances to try it out this weekend unfortunately) so it is likely how you are meant to hold hate when your MP is low since damage gives more enmity than healing does. Possibly its recast time could be reduced, but boosting block rates and outmaneuver would combat most of the problems with PLD.

Then again there may just a difference in playstyle required by PLD that we just aren't getting.

[Phobos]

I really just think PLD needs increased Block rates and Outmaneuver's MP recovery boosted, like you suggested. From what I understand Spirits Within does a lot of damage (we didn't get many chances to try it out this weekend unfortunately) so it is likely how you are meant to hold hate when your MP is low since damage gives more enmity than healing does. Possibly its recast time could be reduced, but boosting block rates and outmaneuver would combat most of the problems with PLD.

Then again there may just a difference in playstyle required by PLD that we just aren't getting.

This. Personally I would prefer Spirits Within combo bonus to do something like MP recovery or HP recovery rather than damage, and seeing how it's recast is quite long that doesn't seem too unreasonable. I would be perfectly happy with Outmaneuver becoming useful. Boosted block rate makes sense as well.

I would like changes like this, as I want to use PLD, but I feel as though I'm compelled to use GLA instead. In a party situation you should be compelled to use the Job, which does not seem to be the case right now.