The Problem with Paladin

[Brannigan]

Yeeeah paladin in general is pretty crappy. Divine Veil is real bad, Spirits Within is a 2 minute(!) cooldown compared to Steel Cyclone's amazing 30 seconds, Cover is a situational ability that ends up being worse than Collusion and has a longer cooldown, and its good abilities don't get to see that much use if your party members are actually doing their jobs. Add in the fact that the AF gear is unusably bad and that paladin sits under the minimum HP threshhold to be safe from some of the bigger attacks (meaning that they can't make any mistakes where a warrior can and will still live) and I'm kind of left wondering what they were thinking.

I defended paladin a little bit earlier in the thread but that was when I didn't have warrior unlocked Even if paladin was on the same level as warrior HP-wise, warriors do quadruple paladin damage and paladin's utility/defense in no way makes up for that.

Basically to fix paladin they need to get rid of the HP penalty (and maybe even increase it from gla) or add some kind of passive mitigation.

Cover, Spirits Within, and Divine Veil need their recast times cut in half and Divine Veil needs to have its range increased massively, not overwrite the Regen WHM spell, and do something extra for the paladin (MP regeneration when receiving healing, maybe).

Spirits Within needs a damage boost or to ignore defense or something since even at a 60 second cooldown it wouldn't be that great. Cover should generate enmity for every attack covered or something, though maybe a simple range increase would suffice.

Finally, DLVL needs to play less of a role in block calculations and Outmaneuver should greatly increase your block chance for the duration. Oh and give us god damn parries back because the Marauder subclass is useless outside of Provoke (healing 300 hp on a spirits within is pretty crappy).

Oh and Riot Blade's combo condition could stand to be changed to Side or Any. Side is a lot easier to access than Rear at times and also a lot safer if the mob actually does turn. The defense down effect might actually add some worthwhile utility.

Basically they just need to do a lot because paladin is realllly that bad when you compare it to warrior.

[Evaddaragon]

I held back on that thread because I gave my opinion earlier on the french forums, and it's been announced for quite awhile by reps that there will be adjustments to the Paladin jobs. Therefore, any discussion and opinion given by us for adjustments are nothing more than conjecture, but since we do not when and how the adjustments are going to be made, there certainly is no harm in speculating.

In short, my opinion about Paladin is that, for all intents and purposes, it can do the job it's been designed for efficiently enough. Hell, it can even solo to a fair degree. All of that, however, is sorely dependant on the player's skills and an adaptation in playstyle. I can easily solo a level 54-55 mob with PLD without problems, and I rarely have hate issues when tanking. People have been complaining about the MP issue, but I don't because I don't NEED to spam Holy Succor to keep hate, since pretty much any decent party has 2 WHMs and more often than not a BRD, too. Good WHMs will see to it that you do NOT need to use Holy Succor enough to run out of MP. If you do, you suck at PLD. Same goes for Cover, really. It's meant to be an emergency button, not a counter-measure for your inability to keep hate on yourself. As for soloing, you have access to Aegis Boon, Bloodbath and Stoneskin to last you for quite awhile, at least more than enough to be reasonably sturdy when soloing. Whatever your job is, you are NOT supposed to be soloing anything that's 6 levels or higher than you. Since I can solo a 54-55 mob on my PLD, I can say that on its own accord, it's not broken.

That being said, the actual problem with Paladin is not that the job can't work, it's that there is another job that can do its role even better (WAR). Paladin is supposed to be the better tank because that's all it is good at, since both its healing and damage dealing abilities are below average. That's where it hurts : WAR tanks just as well AND it also does good damage. That's why it can't compare. Like others have said, though, I do not want SE to nerf Warrior (altough honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they ever do something to Steel Cyclone, it's so powerful right now). I believe making adjustments to Paladin in order to make it a better tank than anything else is enough to warrant its usability. Warrior will still be useful as it is.

In my opinion, adjustments need to be made to both the AF armor and abilities of the Paladin. I do not consider each and every of these adjustments to be major, however the sum of these changes will make a major impact.

AF Armor :

1- Give HP bonuses to all the pieces, stacking it up to about 250 HP bonus total. This would bring the Paladin, in a full party, at a level of about 3500 HP without buffs, which is reasonable. Putting its HP total above the Warrior is not a solution I want to apply, nor do I believe negating the 120 HP to 120 MP penalty from GLA would work. Adjustments are about balancing, not overpowering. There has to still be a few disadvantages to jobs, as it is the intent behind the system.

2- Change the current Cover enhancement on the Gallant Surcoat. The current effect reduces damage taken when covering someone. Change that to converting some of the damage taken into MP. It's an idea that worked well, if only situational, on the Valor Surcoat in FFXI, and if well used, will allow the PLD some MP regeneration. There is another adjustment to Cover that needs to be done in order for that to work. More on that later.

These two minor adjustments alone will make it so the AF will be more desirable without making it overpowered. Therefore, using full AF will be perfectly understandable considering the other enhancements (MP +, enmity, other abilities enhancements).


Paladin abilities :

1- Cover : The recast time is fine, the duration can be slightly increased. Make it 30 seconds instead of 20. Also, increase the range to make it equal to the WHM's casting range (I believe it is slightly shorter). Paladins and White Mages need to work in symbiose, and so this adjustment would make it so. Do not increase it further to even protect Black Mages that are even farther, if they die because they spam too much ancient magic, it is NOT the Paladin's fault.

2- Divine Veil : Both the duration and recast time are fine, since the effect can be for about 25% of time you're tanking. However, make it so that you can activate it youself by casting Cure on yourself. Also, make it so it works on yourself as well as stack with the White Mage's regen ( I was under the impression this already is the case, but I'm not sure. ). If you feel that these adjustments make it overpowered, it's because, in my opinion, that Divine Veil is currently the least useful ability for a Paladin. At worst, you can also reduce the regen effect to balance the other adjustments.

3- Holy Succor : It is generally fine as it is, if only that you could shorten the recast time from 10 seconds to 5. It doesn't need to work with Sacred Prism, because it has the potency of Cura, with more or less the same MP cost, however it also heals yourself for half the amount you heal your companion. That alone balances why it shouldn't work with Sacred Prism. However, you could leave it as it is and I'd still think it's a good ability.

4- Spirits Within : At first, considering its power for a tank (it does great damage for a sword WS), I was fine with the recast time... Until I unlocked Warrior and saw that Steel Cyclone, for all its awesoness, was ONLY on a 30 second recast. Therefore, please cut the recast time in half. Then I'm happy with it, as it could always be used with Bloodbath to replenish whatever HP you don't currently have. Indeed, you could use Aegis Boon + Phalanx + Bloodbath + Spirits Within every minute and do not feel this would make Paladin overpowered, while giving it some nice survivability and some DPS to maintain hate.

5- Hallowed Ground : Possibly one of the best 15 minute ability as it currently stands. I'd simply give it an enmity boost comparable to Taunt (temporary focus of the target on the Paladin), because let's face it, what's the point in being impervious to physical damage in you're not the one being hit ? This would simply ensure that the ability is not wasted. While it would negate the idea of using it with Cover, I'd dare say that Cover should be used for something else.

So yeah, these are my suggestions. Feel free to discuss them.

[Treach]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...764#post449764

Something I just read, so maybe start saving up HP gear now just incase, even if you don't prefer it.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post510665 Posted 01-08-2012 03:20 AM.

Same thread has people telling me meva, vit and defense matters. I get an "I told you so." right?

Don't understand SE's logic of reducing what is supposed to be a main tanks HP pool and giving a hybrid dps/tank with a larger HP pool an even larger HP pool. I also doubt they are going to change any damage/shield block formulas before 2.0 and the only real fix they can do is give PLD more HP, replace CNJ traits with PGL traits so at least they are closer to WAR in terms of mitigation (can't parry while wearing a shield...wtf) and adding a reduced CD on sentinel on the trait from GLD.

Pressing featherfoot and foresight (I think it's called that) twice each or maybe even just once in a boss fight is so much more mitigation than defense melded into shield + body and 10 VIT. WAR wins hands down with two free no damage abilities, a WS that hits for 400+ damage on a 20s CD that you can bloodbath AND stuns, huge HP pool for breathing room on healers and vengeance seems to reduce damage taken while active also on physical hits (testing that later today).

Anyway IDGAF if they buff PLD or not, WAR works fine. It's not like they haven't made classes obsolete before.

[Peptaru]

You still can't say that defense/vit/meva is useless, but you only ever talk about tanking big things. if you need 1200 defense and 500 vitality against those mobs, or 750 meva to reach damage mitigation caps then yeah they don't serve a purpose due to the progression of mitigation as your numbers get closer to cap, but there is a lot of stuff that does NOT have numbers that high, wherein 750 defense with like 250 VIT will reach the mitigation cap. For situations like that, warrior is still better as it is now, but giving pld enough def/vit/meva to actually make a difference in fights would work just as well and give the job back its meaning, i'll take 3200 HP pool and getting hit for 1500 over 4200 HP and getting hit for 2500. As it stands, on the only stuff you talk about, those stats are meaningless for now, but srsly.... there is more content than you ever acknowledge lol.

Edit: For now warrior is definitely going to be the way better tank, but i do hope that gets fixed.

[Treach]

Yes, I can say it is useless. It is extremely useless right now and if they ever fix it to where it works then guess what, I'll be using it. It seems like 90% of this forum is allergic to min-maxing for the current state of the game, if something is better why not use it? "NO WE WILL WEAR OUR VIT BODIES AND DEFENSE SHIELDS WITH HONOR THAT YOU DON'T HAVE YOU DIRTY FOUL EVIL HORRIBLE OBSCENE HP STACKER" is all I read. Why the are you even saying that you'd choose taking 1500 damage over 2500 damage regardless of HP pool difference (pro tip, only chest and shield can have defense materia and head can't have HP so the HP difference won't be 1000), any moron would do that.

Gold coffers and the roaming nms that no one ever does? Yeah buddy, you got me there.

tl;dr
HP is best for now and probably along time after
WAR > PLD
actual useful endgame content: two primals and two dungeons
world nms are for frolicking around and enjoying the sights of a digital world.

[Peptaru]

You live in your four little events then, but quit saying stuff doesn't serve a purpose just cuz it is useless to you and your super-coolness. I'm not allergic to min-maxing, i'm allergic to the bullcrap that there are only four things worth doing in the game. Sorry you're bored with stuff, but that also doesn't make stats useless. You wanna say that they're useless for the four things listed here: A B C D, but effective for: E F G H I etc, then you won't have so many people disagreein with you.

[Treach]

You avoided the question...all the charts prove the stats are broken. You didn't even read the part where I said if the stats worked I'd use them, but they don't so I use HP.

I'm not even sure if you are serious or just trolling.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/
Here is proof mEVA, VIT, and defense are not effective against mobs that are actually tough. If you need these stats to stop a drubber or a moogle NM from killing you then something else is wrong. You just refuse to accept HP is the best stat for now and won't see that I'd be more then happy to have those other stats work and be better. L2Read please.

[Treach]

How is that even a comeback?

Can you even give me one valid example of the points you are arguing? Not a single person arguing defense and meva has given me one.

[Peptaru]

Go look up the tests on all these stats that have been referenced in other posts (edit for spelling), or google with search terms simple enough for a child to use and you'll find a plethora of testing on stats against varying mob levels, even broken down into simple charts and graphs if you don't feel up to reading the actual testing methods. You always just HP HP HP HP as your answer and now seem you haven't even looked at both sides of this lol. Also "comebacks" are for when you're in a petty and childish arguement, is that what we're doin? I could do that if you wanted, but i'd rather not. I thought this was more of a point-counterpoint situation. I hope this was more to your liking if you're looking for a petty arguement instead of discussion.