The Problem with Paladin

[Phobos]

Just to add onto this shield discussion... why can we not block magical attacks? I'm thinking about it right now and I have a board game from my childhood where on the cover is a knight holding up a shield to barricade himself against some dragon breathing fire at him. Just seems odd we're incapable of at least shielding against magic attacks a little bit...

[Kiara]

Hi Treach,

Thanks for the data parse!

I knew my Block Rate was low, especially as dLVL goes up, but seeing your latest data really highlights how pathetic Block is for Paladin.

I really hope Yoshida-san and the Combat Team see this thread, and that we get a fix soon.

Thanks~

[Peptaru]

I'm sure the numbers are out there but i'm tired right now and i don't want to look. anyone who wants to accomodate a tired taru, is the block rate as miserable against all mobs 58+ as they are at ifrit? i assume they would be, but if anyone has the #s handy and wants to stick them up here i'd be interested, if not i'll look around when i get up. Thx! ... maybe thx! :P

[Kyri]

(Posting as Kaetara Sagitta)

I read through all 21 pages of this thread, and I am honestly confounded at the sheer number of people who delivered the exact same argument regarding "Jobs are meant for party play.." without having read the equally countless other replies to that exact same argument stating "Classes can be used in party play..". Joining a party doesn't mean you have to switch to your class's corresponding job.

It doesn't matter if a PLD can be a better PLD with a BRD, because a GLA can be a better GLA with a BRD.

A better, mathematically equivalent equation would be: If GLA>PLD and BRD=BRD, then GLA+BRD > PLD+BRD.

To that end, since a GLA can tank just as well as a PLD while having better survivability, then a GLA tank can allow the BRD to stay as an ARC and focus on DD rather than buffs.

I also find myself quietly laughing at all the instances of people saying that PLD was designed to be a support tank. In what way, shape, or form does that notion even make a modicum of sense? Even the developers concept of PLD stated they were meant to be "the solid rock upon which the party's defense is founded" (paraphrased), not "the loose rock upon which the party can stand when all else fails".

Honestly I agree with all points made that PLD simply does not perform the job of tank as well as other jobs, or even classes, can. It desperately needs to be revised.

[Klive]

I don't even see the paladin as a tank job, to be honest. The warrior abilities are so much better for holding threat. Warriors had damage reflection, two enmity abilities, and 15 min that get the warrior a ton of threat. Warriors also have, generally, 1000 more hp. Warrior, in my opinion, in the tank class.

Paladins actually block normal monsters, have an AoE taunt, and support abilities; this say support off-tank to me. Lets go down the paladin ability list.

Cover - Almost useless as a main tank. If you have to use this on a boss while main tanking... something went really wrong. As an off tank, this has lots of uses. Throw it on the main tank to give some breathing room, if you get a block you can spirits within the monster. Throw it on the DD/healer when they pull threat from trash spawned monsters. Cover works great when paired with sacred ground making the main tank invincible. In short, cover is much more useful as a off tank than main.

Divine Veil - Useful as main tank... if people are actually around you, but main tanks generally don't have anyone around them. But as an off-tank support, you are next to the tank or collecting trash spawn monsters next to the DD. Divine Veil is much more useful off-tanking and supporting than main tanking.

Holy Succor - A heal that is more powerful when used to heal someone besides yourself. If this was a main tank ability, it would be more powerful when used on yourself. As a off-tank support you get much more benefit from it. Off-tank should be near the tank, so he will be tanking damage as well; but not as much. Holy Succor heals you for heals you for half the amount, so when used on the tank if keeps you next to him and supporting the tank.

Spirits Within - WS that combos off phalanx, which needs a block. We have around discussed how you do not block bosses. Throwing cover with a Aegis Boon can get you your needed combo. This ability is much more useful rounding up trash monsters then bosses.

Scared Ground- Paladin's only, arguably, tank ability. It is on a 15min cooldown and mixes well with cover. This one is actually just as good as a tank as an off tank. This only one skill that really helps the paladin tank and the cooldown is too long.

GLA ability

Flash - Insta-cast AoE taunt with blind. Better for rounding up trash spawn monsters as an off tank.

War Drum - AoE taunt after a block. Well, you rarely block on bosses and it is AoE. This truely a off-tank ability for trash monsters.

Rampart - The whole party get this buff when you use it. You can use this to support the main tank and lower his damage. Sounds like a an off-tank support ability to me.

Outmaneuver - Gives Tp and Mp off block. You don't block boss monsters, but you do block trash monsters! Helping you off-tank and keep you mana up without a bard.

CNJ - Cross Skill

All are buffs and heals.... so support... not hard to see.

Raise - Paladin is one of three classes that can raise. This is useless as a main tank though. Main tanks cannot afford to stop tanking to raise. The off-tank support can run off to raise someone though...


I think I beat this dead horse enough. If you look at the paladin as an off-tank support it is a fantastic job. Warrior is so much better geared for tanking, let him tank.

EDIT: I don't think the paladin needs to be changed as much as how we use and view the paladin.

[Peptaru]

You can raise with hallowed ground against many mobs, its wonderful as a last resort and you don't have to stop tanking if you're casting while waiting on timers anyway. that said, i'm not a fan of pld as a main tank right now, hopefully down the road it'll meet the role that SE had in mind for it according to the post that has been quoted over and over.

[Phobos]

I don't even see the paladin as a tank job, to be honest. The warrior abilities are so much better for holding threat. Warriors had damage reflection, two enmity abilities, and 15 min that get the warrior a ton of threat. Warriors also have, generally, 1000 more hp. Warrior, in my opinion, in the tank class.

Paladins actually block normal monsters, have an AoE taunt, and support abilities; this say support off-tank to me. Lets go down the paladin ability list.

Cover - Almost useless as a main tank. If you have to use this on a boss while main tanking... something went really wrong. As an off tank, this has lots of uses. Throw it on the main tank to give some breathing room, if you get a block you can spirits within the monster. Throw it on the DD/healer when they pull threat from trash spawned monsters. Cover works great when paired with sacred ground making the main tank invincible. In short, cover is much more useful as a off tank than main.

Divine Veil - Useful as main tank... if people are actually around you, but main tanks generally don't have anyone around them. But as an off-tank support, you are next to the tank or collecting trash spawn monsters next to the DD. Divine Veil is much more useful off-tanking and supporting than main tanking.

Holy Succor - A heal that is more powerful when used to heal someone besides yourself. If this was a main tank ability, it would be more powerful when used on yourself. As a off-tank support you get much more benefit from it. Off-tank should be near the tank, so he will be tanking damage as well; but not as much. Holy Succor heals you for heals you for half the amount, so when used on the tank if keeps you next to him and supporting the tank.

Spirits Within - WS that combos off phalanx, which needs a block. We have around discussed how you do not block bosses. Throwing cover with a Aegis Boon can get you your needed combo. This ability is much more useful rounding up trash monsters then bosses.

Scared Ground- Paladin's only, arguably, tank ability. It is on a 15min cooldown and mixes well with cover. This one is actually just as good as a tank as an off tank. This only one skill that really helps the paladin tank and the cooldown is too long.

GLA ability

Flash - Insta-cast AoE taunt with blind. Better for rounding up trash spawn monsters as an off tank.

War Drum - AoE taunt after a block. Well, you rarely block on bosses and it is AoE. This truely a off-tank ability for trash monsters.

Rampart - The whole party get this buff when you use it. You can use this to support the main tank and lower his damage. Sounds like a an off-tank support ability to me.

Outmaneuver - Gives Tp and Mp off block. You don't block boss monsters, but you do block trash monsters! Helping you off-tank and keep you mana up without a bard.

CNJ - Cross Skill

All are buffs and heals.... so support... not hard to see.

Raise - Paladin is one of three classes that can raise. This is useless as a main tank though. Main tanks cannot afford to stop tanking to raise. The off-tank support can run off to raise someone though...


I think I beat this dead horse enough. If you look at the paladin as an off-tank support it is a fantastic job. Warrior is so much better geared for tanking, let him tank.

EDIT: I don't think the paladin needs to be changed as much as how we use and view the paladin.

Your interpretation, however, does not match the intention of the dev team when creating paladin. It was not intended that WAR would tank and PLD would off-tank/support (Hell, WAR has an ability that reduces it's defense). It was intended that PLD be the tank, and perhaps WAR as a viable "If the PLD dies I wont fall down in 3 seconds" tank. Kyri's post right before yours sums it up best I feel.

PLD is useless compared to even GLA, as it becomes less survivable and more like a secondary healer that can take some hits if your war dies.

Your assertion that we should just look at PLD differently is completely wrong. You could even say because GLA gets SR it can support better than PLD can. PLD is a very underpowered job. The dev's mentioned multiple times would be, as Kyri paraphrased "the solid rock upon which the party's defense is founded". Just because it is not that at this point does not mean we need to reevaluate our conception of it, it means it needs to be buffed to the point where that statement becomes true.

[Klive]

Your assertion that we should just look at PLD differently is completely wrong. You could even say because GLA gets SR it can support better than PLD can. PLD is a very underpowered job. The dev's mentioned multiple times would be, as Kyri paraphrased "the solid rock upon which the party's defense is founded". Just because it is not that at this point does not mean we need to reevaluate our conception of it, it means it needs to be buffed to the point where that statement becomes true.

"the solid rock upon which the party's defense is founded"

Thing is, the party's defense does increase with a paladin in it. I'm playing a paladin and have no trouble increasing my whole party's defense with it. I don't speak for the DEV because I'm not them. I didn't attend the meetings where decisions were made. I don't even care. I going with what abilities they have and what the paladin can do. If they change the paladin, I'll change my views with it. For now, I play the paladin, very effectively, as an support off-tank because it works great as one.

[Peptaru]

No one said it isn't klive, people are saying that they want the job to live up to what the devs said they wanted it to be.

[Jenday]

I don't even see the paladin as a tank job, to be honest. The warrior abilities are so much better for holding threat. Warriors had damage reflection, two enmity abilities, and 15 min that get the warrior a ton of threat. Warriors also have, generally, 1000 more hp. Warrior, in my opinion, in the tank class.

Paladins actually block normal monsters, have an AoE taunt, and support abilities; this say support off-tank to me. Lets go down the paladin ability list.

Cover - Almost useless as a main tank. If you have to use this on a boss while main tanking... something went really wrong. As an off tank, this has lots of uses. Throw it on the main tank to give some breathing room, if you get a block you can spirits within the monster. Throw it on the DD/healer when they pull threat from trash spawned monsters. Cover works great when paired with sacred ground making the main tank invincible. In short, cover is much more useful as a off tank than main.

Divine Veil - Useful as main tank... if people are actually around you, but main tanks generally don't have anyone around them. But as an off-tank support, you are next to the tank or collecting trash spawn monsters next to the DD. Divine Veil is much more useful off-tanking and supporting than main tanking.

Holy Succor - A heal that is more powerful when used to heal someone besides yourself. If this was a main tank ability, it would be more powerful when used on yourself. As a off-tank support you get much more benefit from it. Off-tank should be near the tank, so he will be tanking damage as well; but not as much. Holy Succor heals you for heals you for half the amount, so when used on the tank if keeps you next to him and supporting the tank.

Spirits Within - WS that combos off phalanx, which needs a block. We have around discussed how you do not block bosses. Throwing cover with a Aegis Boon can get you your needed combo. This ability is much more useful rounding up trash monsters then bosses.

Scared Ground- Paladin's only, arguably, tank ability. It is on a 15min cooldown and mixes well with cover. This one is actually just as good as a tank as an off tank. This only one skill that really helps the paladin tank and the cooldown is too long.

GLA ability

Flash - Insta-cast AoE taunt with blind. Better for rounding up trash spawn monsters as an off tank.

War Drum - AoE taunt after a block. Well, you rarely block on bosses and it is AoE. This truely a off-tank ability for trash monsters.

Rampart - The whole party get this buff when you use it. You can use this to support the main tank and lower his damage. Sounds like a an off-tank support ability to me.

Outmaneuver - Gives Tp and Mp off block. You don't block boss monsters, but you do block trash monsters! Helping you off-tank and keep you mana up without a bard.

CNJ - Cross Skill

All are buffs and heals.... so support... not hard to see.

Raise - Paladin is one of three classes that can raise. This is useless as a main tank though. Main tanks cannot afford to stop tanking to raise. The off-tank support can run off to raise someone though...


I think I beat this dead horse enough. If you look at the paladin as an off-tank support it is a fantastic job. Warrior is so much better geared for tanking, let him tank.

EDIT: I don't think the paladin needs to be changed as much as how we use and view the paladin.

derp......