The Problem with Paladin

[Phobos]

I'd like to see a GLA Cover a mage when Great Buffalo drops hate when -20%HP. Then use Holy Succor to simultaneously replenish a party members HP and tanks HP at the same time thus effectively contributing to the party as more than a static meat shield whilst procuring more enmity.

I also personally like the fact that Divine Veil utilizes PLD as a satelite cure in order to take some hate burden off of a mage that has to cure heavy.

Hallowed Ground is a good "oh shit" button imo.

PLD also has a nice dmg output boost over GLA.

Last time i checked, key parts of being a tank were: resilience, a method with which to sustain enmity, and the know how to effectively combine the last two with proper positional awareness.

PLD isn't flawed: it is more geared for survival than GLA could ever hope to be. Ppl continue to make comments about MP vs. Second Wind and such, however they completely miss or AVOID the utility of Holy Succor in an attempt to justify their argument. Because being seen by the public as "right" is COOL and gives awesome ego boost so ppl will (respect?) you more.

Seems like everyone ranting about how PLD sucks should really be writing a thread about how user error dilutes the hard work and legitimacy of most well working concepts.

Jobs all have their own utility. SE said from the start that classes would still be just as capable of their role and weren't becoming obsolete. So what is everyone so afraid of? Change?

Well the majority already voted for change and now its here once again. Deal with it.

Congratulations on finding a use for cover, I truly commend you on that.

Hallowed ground I'm sure works great for buffalo too, as it is a physical attacking mob - once again I'm glad there's a use for it, though I am still underwhelmed by the 15 seconds. Some of these just seem too short a duration to make a difference - Hallowed Ground I would think you would use when things get rough; is that really enough time to recover? Perhaps the best use would be a situation where the WHM dies and you use it to get off raise.

As for Holy Succor, I suppose my problem is more that I usually go with a good WHM (career WHM from FFXI, played the job for years) so the only time I use it is when he tells me he's not going to cure me for some reason or another. I realize it is more useful in healing others, but most of the time I use it I see either me or my WHM's cure hitting for 0 because we both cured at the same time. I haven't run into enmity issues too much myself, but I think you're right in saying Holy Succor is useful for curing others

From the sounds of it, the abilities you get allow you to do great buffalo easier due to having enmity issues when it is reset.

As for the comment of survivability, however I disagree. Holy Succor is merely a more potent version of cure. While this is nice, it still requires a decent ammount of casting time, during which you could get hit and interrupted or killed. Personally, and I think others may agree, I find a combination of Second Wind -> Featherfoot -> Cure to work amazingly well for instantaneous and reliable damage mitigation and HP recovery. This also stalls for quite a bit, allowing for the WHM to have more time to get a cure of on you.

In short; sure, I agree, Holy Succor is great. The problem here is that Paladin is more MP reliant than Gladiator, and while gaining no noticeable defense, magic defense, block rate, or anything of the like, you trade abilities like Second Wind and Featherfoot and Deocy for highly situational (yes, you managed to find a situation for some of them) abilities such as Cover, Divine Veil, and Hallowed Ground.

The result is that a PLD has very little in terms of enmity generation or defense over GLA, while GLA has a great deal more useful abilities that allow it to stay alive longer. Because the two roles of a tank are to keep hate and not die, this makes GLA better.

Also, side-note: why is it that we have one hand devoted to holding up a shield, yet almost never actually use it?

[Brannigan]

I've been on Paladin as much as possible since the patch and it's pretty damn good. I don't know if it's the soul crystal but what I'm doing shouldn't be holding hate sometimes but it just is. Things like one war drum holding stuff through their whole life bar.

Where paladin really seems to excel isn't necessarily in boss fights (though I think it's great there too) but before that. Paladin's amazing for clearing trash packs and when shit hits the fan. Cover on a mage who's doing Excruciate>Flare, Holy Succor for the when someone manages to pull threat or your stuff is on cooldown, divine veil for when stuff is going really crazy, and hallowed ground for when your whm gets his icons confused and hits holy instead of regen or whatever.

Holy Succor's great, Spirits Within is pretty good considering the 250 tp cost (though I wouldn't mind a shorter cooldown), Divine Veil is good in some situations, and Cover is a whole lot better than people are giving it credit for (although be careful when using it around high damage aoe, haha).

I guess Gallant gear kind of sucks. The feet stand out as a particularly bad piece. The gauntlets are good if only for the effect. Legs aren't worth it if you have a double meld. Head I'm not so sure about, but probably not worth it. I'm wearing body regardless of stats just because it's so cool and I want to figure out what the Cover enhancement is.

Other than that only real complaint I have about it is that the paladin's subclasses are kind of ass. Marauder gives provoke and possibly bloodbath. The former is good but the latter really isn't for paladin, so you're basically just getting one skill. Conjurer gives Sacred Prism>Cure (one skill for the price of two, really, since cure is rarely worth casting outside of prism), Raise, and... stoneskin or protect I guess.

Oh and one nice change would be to make Divine Veil scale with a stat. As far as I can tell (and I may be wrong about this), it's 169/tick without AF legs and 203 with AF legs, regardless of any stat changes. I tried healing potency and enhancing magic. Veil's healing also doesn't scale with the power of the spell cast on you (cure/cura gave the same regen). One thing that just popped into my head that I didn't test was the enhancing magic stat of the mage curing you, so maybe that's it.

P.S. guy on the first page, FraenirVolsung, Foresight doesn't do shit for anyone wearing a shield in their offhand.

e: Actually a lot of the Gallant set feels like they forgot a digit or something. 1 enmity on the boots when Sentinel just got buffed to 9 is just weird. 3 enm and 3 healing potency on cuirass, etc.

[Peptaru]

I tanked the buffalo about a week ago, on gladiator of course, and while it was wailing on my face sonorous never reset hate to the point where a single provoke didn't take it back. i had thms and arcs going and had no trouble keeping hate. having a party that can keep their own hate down is common sense on stuff like buffalo. don't let your DD's be 'gifted'. i was the only person he was hitting so holy succor, divine veil = useless save for the extra hp i could cure myself for with succor. I'm far from resistant to change, i really like paladin. the JSE is my gripe. Maybe i'll use pld as a jack-of-all-trades/master-of-none for awhile til i find a working gear combo.

[Phobos]

Where paladin really seems to excel isn't necessarily in boss fights (though I think it's great there too) but before that. Paladin's amazing for clearing trash packs and when shit hits the fan. Cover on a mage who's doing Excruciate>Flare, Holy Succor for the when someone manages to pull threat or your stuff is on cooldown, divine veil for when stuff is going really crazy, and hallowed ground for when your whm gets his icons confused and hits holy instead of regen or whatever.

I may be a tad off-topic here, but just to comment on this part - I think you're right here to a degree, and perhaps you have not experienced partying with a WAR. The problem is, GLA can do what you suggest PLD can do just as fine, and even at that, partying with a WAR in Natalan, fights almost always went something like this:

I pull all wolves, get to camp. Pop Sentinel for boosted enmity, AOE flash, provoke my current target to ensure I can get an Aegis Boon off, hit Rampart. Once I get Aegis Boon to hit I use War Drum, Phalanx, Spirits Within. Pop Outmaneuver for the possible shield blocks, and start curing myself because at this point for a little enmity and to stay alive.

It's around this time that the WAR gets off Steel Cyclone, and every single mob that was attacking me is now stunned, and will be attacking the WAR when they are un-stunned. Meanwhile the war has a full Stoneskin up, and is losing no HP.

You can try to use AOE flash again, maybe get lucky to get your main target on you so you can try another War Drum, but before you can;

Steel Cyclone. The WAR is now fully healed (thats about 4000 HP, 1000 more than you), and mobs are stunned again. There is no way you're getting hate back.

Not complaining about WAR here, just saying you seem to suggest PLD is best at tanking lots of trash mobs, and while that's true, it's only true until the WAR gets TP. It is an excellent puller and initial tank so that mages don't have to worry at the start of a fight.

EDIT: Also a bit off topic, but I think comparing MRD/WAR to GLA/PLD is valid. The concept behind GLA/PLD is that we sacrifice using a bigger weapon so that we can use a shield... the problem with that is that we barely ever actually make use of said shield, whereas the MRD/WAR is just using a heavy duty weapon, and has about the same Defense with more HP. If shield/defense should be GLA/PLD's main focus, we should actually use the shield, and actually have more defense.


EDIT 2:

I tanked the buffalo about a week ago, on gladiator of course, and while it was wailing on my face sonorous never reset hate to the point where a single provoke didn't take it back. i had thms and arcs going and had no trouble keeping hate. having a party that can keep their own hate down is common sense on stuff like buffalo. don't let your DD's be 'gifted'. i was the only person he was hitting so holy succor, divine veil = useless save for the extra hp i could cure myself for with succor. I'm far from resistant to change, i really like paladin. the JSE is my gripe. Maybe i'll use pld as a jack-of-all-trades/master-of-none for awhile til i find a working gear combo.

I'm with you here; I am not having problems with enmity on either GLA or PLD, so some of these new abilities that might be getting more enmity are rather lackluster. Sentinel + enmity ability spam is good enough right now. I too really like Paladin, and I love the look of the JSE. I simply wish PLD was actually a better tank than GLA, and more importantly WAR. The "gains" it has over GLA and WAR are not gains at all, but rather restrictions and hindrances to survivability.

I'm finding I'm doing the reverse of what was intended here: Partying on Gladiator, soloing on Paladin. I'm only soloing on Paladin so that I can actually use it somewhere, and for shorter solo fights, Spirits Within comes into play more often.

[AreeyaJaidee]

It's true there are a Myriad of different ways to tank in FFXIV.

Whether that is intentional or by accident on SE's part will always remain a debate only ended by SE itself.

Yes, PLD and GLA differ in situational utility. But honestly how much "hair splitting" are we doing here?

Jobs have been out for less than a week whilst Classes are veteran occupations. The only real difference is the majority of players who tank in ffxiv are more "comfortable" with the way they've played GLA. In other words PLD is the new kid on the block and no one likes him/her yet.

As far as WAR goes: this is no different than MRDs relation to GLA. There's always been a rival in terms of tanking prowess between GLA and MRD. Now that feud has transferred to the two respective inheritors.

PLD has always been about Heavy MP use. I really dont know why everyone's so shocked by this.

The moral here is that, so many Job bashing threads keep popping up because it's the "newest thing to gripe about". When in reality it's just a matter of a uneasy community receiving new elements which aren't fully understood yet.

For ppl that still wanna GLA: good for you. Good luck keeping a WAR from ganking your hate lock because in all honesty not even GLA is capable of man handling a skilled WAR
(kinda unbalanced in regards to PvP right?)

P.S. Use that Shield Bash!

[Phobos]

It's true there are a Myriad of different ways to tank in FFXIV.

Whether that is intentional or by accident on SE's part will always remain a debate only ended by SE itself.

Yes, PLD and GLA differ in situational utility. But honestly how much "hair splitting" are we doing here?

Jobs have been out for less than a week whilst Classes are veteran occupations. The only real difference is the majority of players who tank in ffxiv are more "comfortable" with the way they've played GLA. In other words PLD is the new kid on the block and no one likes him/her yet.

As far as WAR goes: this is no different than MRDs relation to GLA. There's always been a rival in terms of tanking prowess between GLA and MRD. Now that feud has transferred to the two respective inheritors.

PLD has always been about Heavy MP use. I really dont know why everyone's so shocked by this.

The moral here is that, so many Job bashing threads keep popping up because it's the "newest thing to gripe about". When in reality it's just a matter of a uneasy community receiving new elements which aren't fully understood yet.

For ppl that still wanna GLA: good for you. Good luck keeping a WAR from ganking your hate lock because in all honesty not even GLA is capable of man handling a skilled WAR
(kinda unbalanced in regards to PvP right?)

P.S. Use that Shield Bash!

Simply examining the abilities you get on PLD show that it doesn't gain anything in terms of enmity generation or survivability over GLA. The reliance on MP and lack of an ability to recover it is just one reason. Even using a BRD, you could have a different song on with GLA, or be recovering more MP to use it more. This isn't simply bashing the new system - PLD is supposed to be a GLA more specialized in tanking, yet it fails to be.

In terms of a keeping hate from a WAR, this is not doable on either PLD or GLA. PLD gets cover but that only lasts a short while, after which the WAR just gets hate back and keeps it. And yes, this is different from MRD vs GLA, as WAR has a far better AOE (also, they can still use the old one last I checked too). I like that MRD/WAR can tank, and think they should continue to be able to do so. It strikes me as odd, though, that GLA/PLD are not even close to as good, and PLD is even worse.

[AreeyaJaidee]

Simply examining the abilities you get on PLD show that it doesn't gain anything in terms of enmity generation or survivability over GLA. The reliance on MP and lack of an ability to recover it is just one reason. Even using a BRD, you could have a different song on with GLA, or be recovering more MP to use it more. This isn't simply bashing the new system - PLD is supposed to be a GLA more specialized in tanking, yet it fails to be.

In terms of a keeping hate from a WAR, this is not doable on either PLD or GLA. PLD gets cover but that only lasts a short while, after which the WAR just gets hate back and keeps it. And yes, this is different from MRD vs GLA, as WAR has a far better AOE (also, they can still use the old one last I checked too). I like that MRD/WAR can tank, and think they should continue to be able to do so. It strikes me as odd, though, that GLA/PLD are not even close to as good, and PLD is even worse.

Is it possible the point of PLD is increased dmg output balanced by an above average tanking and survivabilty all wrapped in one package?

Maybe we're looking at this in the wrong light.

[Shyd]

Sounds like Manathirst materia is now in season!

[ThugHunter]

Has anyone looked at the Darklight Heavy Stuff?

Darklight Heavy Armor (Body - Cannot equip head)
Defense: 308
HP: +160
Enmity: +45
Vitality: +20
Evasion: -20
Ma Evasion: +10
Regen: +5

Darklight Heavy Flanchard (Legs - Cannot Equip Feet)
Defense: 218
HP +140
Enmity: +25
Vitality: +12
Dexterity: +12
Evasion: -20
Ma Evasion: +10

Darklight Heavy Gaunlets (Hands)
Defense: 85
HP: +80
Enmity: +45
Vitality: +12
Mind: +12
Evasion: -20
Ma Evasion: +5

Now i realise this is a rare drop from the dungeons, but come on, i jizzed in my pants when i saw this, so hope to get it all one day.

[Phobos]

Is it possible the point of PLD is increased dmg output balanced by an above average tanking and survivabilty all wrapped in one package?

Maybe we're looking at this in the wrong light.

A master of sword and shield, the gladiator is a melee specialist who excels in defense. Though his individual blows do not deal great damage, he is able to deliver them in quick succession, a quality that has earned him a reputation for dependability. The paladin job sacrifices maximum HP, but this is compensated by way of greatly enhanced defense as well as the ability to cast healing magic. Valiant by nature, a paladin can shield his comrades from blows, making him the unyielding rock upon which a party’s defense is built.

Nope. This is the light I'm trying to look at PLD in, yet it fails to hold up to what it seems their intention was.

Has anyone looked at the Darklight Heavy Stuff?

Darklight Heavy Armor (Body - Cannot equip head)
Defense: 308
HP: +160
Enmity: +45
Vitality: +20
Evasion: -20
Ma Evasion: +10
Regen: +5

Darklight Heavy Flanchard (Legs - Cannot Equip Feet)
Defense: 218
HP +140
Enmity: +25
Vitality: +12
Dexterity: +12
Evasion: -20
Ma Evasion: +10

Darklight Heavy Gaunlets (Hands)
Defense: 85
HP: +80
Enmity: +45
Vitality: +12
Mind: +12
Evasion: -20
Ma Evasion: +5

Now i realise this is a rare drop from the dungeons, but come on, i jizzed in my pants when i saw this, so hope to get it all one day.

While the new gear is very nice, and I agree with you I needed a thorough pants-cleaning after looking at them, I feel as though these are going to be very difficult to get based on their stats, and I don't feel as though the gear PLD can wear (which, btw WAR can as well) should be reason to use the job over the class.

Ultimately, my problem is not necessarily that GLA is better than PLD (which I beleive it is), but that PLD should outclass GLA and WAR in terms of tanking (both in regards to enmity generation and survivability), but suffer in terms of DD. Currently, this is not the case.