The Problem with Paladin

[LicontAshontear]

I wish a Dev would get in here and give us some feedback as to WHY pld is so horrible. But i know it will never happen.

[Agoven]

JOBS were meant for PARTY PLAY...With a BARD in party = No MP issues.

That is all.

[Agoven]

Anyone like PLD? CAUSE I REALLY DO AND I DON'T THINK ANYTHING NEEDS TO CHANGE ABOUT THE JOB!

By the way...Battle classes/jobs are still in the tweak...

Only Mage classes have been confirmed to be in their semi-final state as they will be in 2.0. By the way I love how mage classes play now. I love how moving causes spell cancellation. It's so much FUN NOW!

...and that is all I had to say.

[Andrien]

JOBS were meant for PARTY PLAY...With a BARD in party = No MP issues.

That is all.

Replace the PLD with a GLA, and you wont need a Bard for MP refresh.

Anyone like PLD? CAUSE I REALLY DO AND I DON'T THINK ANYTHING NEEDS TO CHANGE ABOUT THE JOB!

By the way...Battle classes/jobs are still in the tweak...

Only Mage classes have been confirmed to be in their semi-final state as they will be in 2.0. By the way I love how mage classes play now. I love how moving causes spell cancellation. It's so much FUN NOW!

...and that is all I had to say.

You didn't read much of the thread have you? You should try it out next time before you post a tantrum.

The majority of this discussion is about anything a PLD can do a GLA can do better. There is not much a PLD can do to outshine a GLA or a WAR when it comes to tanking which it is its role.

[Phobos]

Replace the PLD with a GLA, and you wont need a Bard for MP refresh.



You didn't read much of the thread have you? You should try it out next time before you post a tantrum.

The majority of this discussion is about anything a PLD can do a GLA can do better. There is not much a PLD can do to outshine a GLA or a WAR when it comes to tanking which it is its role.

Warrior seem like a better tank then PLD -.- which is pretty sad when PLD should out do the warrior in tanking. Pretty much warrior out does PLD and does awesome DMG.

These two posts pretty much sum up the thread, for the last few people that seem to ignore it. Yes, PLD uses MP better etc. One person I saw complain about casting interrupts, I have not run into such an issue. The real issue is as these two mention (and is twofold).

Regardless of if you have a bard or not (which a lot of replies suggested), GLA has better abilities for tanking. PLD offers hardly anything as the only ability that is not situational or doesn't have a huge recast time is Holy Succor, which while some suggest can be used to generate extra enmity, GLA can still use MP with cure, it's just a less potent spell. People saying they're having an easier time on PLD, I would say it's likely a placebo effect from being in a party with a WHM and a BRD, and to test that you could try the fight on GLA and PLD with the same gear to see for yourself. Yes, the new abilities are neat, but on GLA I will only miss Holy Succor and Spirits Within - both of which cannot really be used too frequently.

The second problem, as the second post I am quoting brings up and the first post mentions, is that WAR is in fact better than both PLD and GLA at tanking regardless. I do not want WAR nerfed or anything, I actually haven't seen anyone request that at all. It is a bit odd though that one of the DD's is better at keeping hate and taking damage because of their HP boost rather than loss, equally high defense, and a front weaponskil combo with actual useful combo bonuses to survival and enmity.

[Zenaku]

Warrior seem like a better tank then PLD -.- which is pretty sad when PLD should out do the warrior in tanking. Pretty much warrior out does PLD and does awesome DMG.

[Knives]

Hmm... This is interesting indeed, I think actually it would be practical if Paladin gained a trait that enhanced Aegis Boon to recover comparable MP to the HP is regenerates upon blocking and to, as you said before, enhance Outmaneuver's block rate and MP recovery.

Even still, I feel like Paladin was always meant to tank along side a Warrior, not exclusively. It's the 1-on-1 tank that can heal the other guy too, and was never meant to heal just himself. It's the pre-healer that uses his MP up at the start of a battle to ease the burdon of hate on the healer by healing the main tank. Holy Succor is a case in point imo. That's just what I'm beginning to think though, based on the job's blatent lack of real enmity tools.

[tachi]

From my understanding the biggest boost from the jobs is being able to equip the job specific gear, and the extra abilities. Each job was offered either exceptionally boosted gear (WHM set) or specific new abilities like the extra songs on BRD, or ws's on LNC, nukes on BLM+convert, PLD didn't get any extra enmity specific abilites except holy succor.

The question is how much enmity does holy succor generate, I know it can cure a lot of total HP from target + self, this could be generating the equivalent enmity of 2 provokes (depending if it uses enmity like cure 75% cured point for point into enmity generated) Also figuring if the healing potency can raise this and the fact that it can be nearly spammed barring MP limits it can really pump up a ton of enmity very quickly.

From a limited amount of testing I think we just don't fully understand the PLD's potential as a community yet.

[AreeyaJaidee]

I'd like to see a GLA Cover a mage when Great Buffalo drops hate when -20%HP. Then use Holy Succor to simultaneously replenish a party members HP and tanks HP at the same time thus effectively contributing to the party as more than a static meat shield whilst procuring more enmity.

I also personally like the fact that Divine Veil utilizes PLD as a satelite cure in order to take some hate burden off of a mage that has to cure heavy.

Hallowed Ground is a good "oh shit" button imo.

PLD also has a nice dmg output boost over GLA.

Last time i checked, key parts of being a tank were: resilience, a method with which to sustain enmity, and the know how to effectively combine the last two with proper positional awareness.

PLD isn't flawed: it is more geared for survival than GLA could ever hope to be. Ppl continue to make comments about MP vs. Second Wind and such, however they completely miss or AVOID the utility of Holy Succor in an attempt to justify their argument. Because being seen by the public as "right" is COOL and gives awesome ego boost so ppl will (respect?) you more.

Seems like everyone ranting about how PLD sucks should really be writing a thread about how user error dilutes the hard work and legitimacy of most well working concepts.

Jobs all have their own utility. SE said from the start that classes would still be just as capable of their role and weren't becoming obsolete. So what is everyone so afraid of? Change?

Well the majority already voted for change and now its here once again. Deal with it.

[Phobos]

I'd like to see a GLA Cover a mage when Great Buffalo drops hate when -20%HP. Then use Holy Succor to simultaneously replenish a party members HP and tanks HP at the same time thus effectively contributing to the party as more than a static meat shield whilst procuring more enmity.

I also personally like the fact that Divine Veil utilizes PLD as a satelite cure in order to take some hate burden off of a mage that has to cure heavy.

Hallowed Ground is a good "oh shit" button imo.

PLD also has a nice dmg output boost over GLA.

Last time i checked, key parts of being a tank were: resilience, a method with which to sustain enmity, and the know how to effectively combine the last two with proper positional awareness.

PLD isn't flawed: it is more geared for survival than GLA could ever hope to be. Ppl continue to make comments about MP vs. Second Wind and such, however they completely miss or AVOID the utility of Holy Succor in an attempt to justify their argument. Because being seen by the public as "right" is COOL and gives awesome ego boost so ppl will (respect?) you more.

Seems like everyone ranting about how PLD sucks should really be writing a thread about how user error dilutes the hard work and legitimacy of most well working concepts.

Jobs all have their own utility. SE said from the start that classes would still be just as capable of their role and weren't becoming obsolete. So what is everyone so afraid of? Change?

Well the majority already voted for change and now its here once again. Deal with it.

Congratulations on finding a use for cover, I truly commend you on that.

Hallowed ground I'm sure works great for buffalo too, as it is a physical attacking mob - once again I'm glad there's a use for it, though I am still underwhelmed by the 15 seconds. Some of these just seem too short a duration to make a difference - Hallowed Ground I would think you would use when things get rough; is that really enough time to recover? Perhaps the best use would be a situation where the WHM dies and you use it to get off raise.

As for Holy Succor, I suppose my problem is more that I usually go with a good WHM (career WHM from FFXI, played the job for years) so the only time I use it is when he tells me he's not going to cure me for some reason or another. I realize it is more useful in healing others, but most of the time I use it I see either me or my WHM's cure hitting for 0 because we both cured at the same time. I haven't run into enmity issues too much myself, but I think you're right in saying Holy Succor is useful for curing others

From the sounds of it, the abilities you get allow you to do great buffalo easier due to having enmity issues when it is reset.

As for the comment of survivability, however I disagree. Holy Succor is merely a more potent version of cure. While this is nice, it still requires a decent ammount of casting time, during which you could get hit and interrupted or killed. Personally, and I think others may agree, I find a combination of Second Wind -> Featherfoot -> Cure to work amazingly well for instantaneous and reliable damage mitigation and HP recovery. This also stalls for quite a bit, allowing for the WHM to have more time to get a cure of on you.

In short; sure, I agree, Holy Succor is great. The problem here is that Paladin is more MP reliant than Gladiator, and while gaining no noticeable defense, magic defense, block rate, or anything of the like, you trade abilities like Second Wind and Featherfoot and Deocy for highly situational (yes, you managed to find a situation for some of them) abilities such as Cover, Divine Veil, and Hallowed Ground.

The result is that a PLD has very little in terms of enmity generation or defense over GLA, while GLA has a great deal more useful abilities that allow it to stay alive longer. Because the two roles of a tank are to keep hate and not die, this makes GLA better.

Also, side-note: why is it that we have one hand devoted to holding up a shield, yet almost never actually use it?