Thread: 5.0 DRK has a Solid foundation, here's why.

Originally Posted by Lyth

I've asked this question elsewhere, but can anyone come up with a burst cooldown that is completely novel? I'm looking for something that you can't draw an analogy to any previously designed ability in the game.

There are various aesthetic variations that you can come up, but in pretty much every case someone can come along and say "Oh, that's just Fight or Flight," or "Oh, that's just a big DoT."

Originally Posted by Arsthan

Okay, just no to Delirium overall. It makes no sense to me why Delirium HAS to be IR, Requiescat, Wildfire or whatever other clone of an ability. Why can't it just be unique? This just a random idea floating through my head now just to prove a point that it can be totally unique and do whatever you come up with while keeping it as a "burst" ability - Delirium would put you into a frenzy/darkess state where your Souleater combo would be replaced with a totally different combo that has higher potency and heck, you could also make it so that the combo has a GCD of 1.5 sec which would also fix the complaint about the "lacking speed of DRK" slightly after the sad loss of BW. I do feel that it would be a little too OP, so you could also add the effect that your Blood drains slowly overtime under the effect of Delirium with no upfront cos (Or some cost, nothing is set in stone). You could also make it a toggle ability that switches you to the frenzy state with the new combo and blood drain, though I do feel that the toggle would mess with Blood spiller a little bit too much... or it wouldn't, it completely depends on how the frenzy combo would act, if it gave any resources or whatever. This way you can have a burst phase with the choice when to use it, so it kind of gives back the feeling of choice that is lacking now imo. Again - I'm not saying that they should do this, this was just to prove a point that you don't have to spam one ability for "Burst". There can be tons of other better ideas than this. GNB has his own unique burst phase already, so why not on DRK too?

I copied the part about what could be done about Delirium. Honestly, I don't even think this is the best idea one could come up with. While I get your point that most thing one could come up with would already have a counter part within another job, this thinking is super one dimensional for game design (talking about general game design) overall - and I do not think even for one second that the devs at SE would think that way; they undoubtedly have tons of crazy ideas that would make it interesting, fun or/and unique while keeping the burst aspect of it. There can be tons of possibilies what you could do with an ability for bursting which doesn't go down the route of IR. Mage's Ballad would be a great example if you ask me. One just needs a good idea and the freedom+determination to make it a reality. Once implemented, all that needs to be done is balancing numbers, nothing more (I don't want to sound like I'm down playing balancing, that can be kinda rough on its own).

The main reason I'd guess they made Delirium into what it is now is the reception of WAR 4.2. It was actually pretty well accepted overall, though obviously not everyone accepted the changes and thought WAR is way too easy/boring now. They just went with the safe route of what they knew already works... well kinda anyway. I probably did mention that it was lazy from SE to just copy it with minor adjustments (the MP you get is sure as hell very minor) somewhere, just like everyone else; and I'd like to retract that statement. Purely because as I once said somewhere, we don't work at SE so we don't know how decisions are made aside that Yoshi-P approves changes. It's rather questionable if the devs actually have the necessary freedom to change skills into something radically different that isn't seen in the game somewhere else. There's also the thing about how their engine would handle the code. Just too many variables to account for in this matter.

The one opinion that people have stands, though. If one wants to play something like WAR, you just play WAR. What exactly is the point of a slightly tweaked WAR that uses MP for oGCDs here and there? I certainly have never thought to myself something in the lines of "Oh, XXXX job is so extremely similar to YYYY job". Anyone can correct me on this one if you had such a thought though.

As a side note; I'd love to see some changes in regards of MP cost/MP gain. SE could just do it the easy way and lower the cost for EoS/TBN while increasing the MP gain - obviously that would lead to more actions per minute with EoS which I'd totally love, however that would also mean lowering the potency to make up for the more frequent use. The Dark side timer should be also tweaked if this happens. Mostly minor number changes that would make the job more active while keeping what ShB is right now. Best of both worlds, I guess.

Originally Posted by Lyth

Having Delirium unlock a special combo is effectively the same as Gnashing Fang. Which, in turn, is the same as most potency boosting cooldowns.

There's not a problem with Delirium being functionally similar to Inner Release, any more than there's a problem with Living Shadow being functionally similar to a DoT. It's not that it lacks complexity. It's the fact that people are identifying it as being a specifically "WAR themed" action, despite the fact that the two windows don't really function the same.

I don't actually think that the issue is Delirium at all, though. The issue is with Bloodspiller and Quietus. From a purely flavour perspective, they could probably stand to do something a little more interesting, be it stealing a small amount of HP and/or a small amount of MP at baseline, which could then be enhanced through Delirium. But I'd like to see what the actual numbers end up being before suggesting something that's a potency boost.

I think you have to be extremely careful with changes to MP generation, though. If you make resource generation too easy, you take the decision making out of the job.

As an example, you can't burn off the extra blood generated by BW under Delirium. So you have to be careful when those two windows show up together. Likewise, you can't generate blood under Delirium, so you need to prepare an adequate amount of blood in advance if Living Shadow is coming off cooldown at the same time. This is what makes it fundamentally different from something like Inner Release, in which everything is free.

The point wasn't the unlocked combo, that would be just a different animation or just flavor if you will, maybe some other effects added to it too. The point was that it could be more of entering a frenzied state where you attack faster, but it drains blood over time for example - slightly similar to what Darkside did with your MP. You can make it so you cannot aquire blood in this state or whatever. It was just somethin I pulled out of my butt on the spot and sure as hell wasn't meant to be taken as a serious change. Just a proof of concept. Not to mention that DRK has never been a burst oriented job - they could have just went with the sustain theme it had going for it since the beginning and balance DRK around that. There was no need for a burst phase in the first place, they just could some potency to the job on some skills to balance it out compared to Burst jobs like WAR.

Delirium is just boring to use and BS has a part in the reason too. The sound effect and animation just don't go well with being spammed. Hitting multiple Fell Cleaves feels good (for the ones that like WAR anyway) because the animation is awesome, feels impactful as hell and the sound effect is perfect. It hitting hard is even more of a bonus. I like BS, but I'd definitely prefer it being used the way it was in SB. The usage of them felt great whenever you had enough blood and one could look forward to hitting with it. In a way, the feeling reminds me of hitting with Fell Cleave in 3.0. BS just shouldn't be spammed, it kind of kills the beauty of the skills, for me anyway. Opinions might differ.

Also, unpopular opinion but I loved Delirium in SB. Might have not been really that OP, but it felt good to extend BW for the extra MP and most Blood used on Delirium recovered through the use of the longer BW. It was plain, but effective - it was unique and could have been just buffed instead of reworking it. That said, if they buffed it, they obviously would bring back the old BW.

As for the MP thing... I just don't see the decision making in DRK right now. You start with 2 EoS for the Darkside timer, keep enough MP for TBN. Then you gather enough MP so you can use EoS within TA windows along with Delirium while not overcapping on MP, which if you do then I don't know what to tell you. I just don't see it... I like the idea of keeping up Dark Side, but it's way too easy to keep it up without even trying.

Funny enough the Dark arts spam of 4.0 required more braincells to maximize its efficiency than the entire 5.0 DRK skillset combined.

5.0 DKR PlaYing gUIde~~

1 - souleater combo
2 - hit your 60 seconds cooldown ogcds the moment they are up
3 - Inner release 5x buttspiller

5.0 dKr OpTiOnAL ~~

1 - save 3k mana for tbn
2 - hope tbn actually breaks
3 - Pop living shadow and count how many seconds it takes for it to actually start doing something
4 - build 4.5k skillspeed DRK and remember all the good times you used to have

I [Dark Arts] didn't [Dark Arts] enjoy [Dark Arts] the [Dark Arts] Dark Arts [Dark Arts] spam... but I share a similar sentiment as some of the comments up there regarding Delirium: it feels uninspired.

I have long since stopped caring about WOWWEEE ZOWEEE! YOU CAN DO [X] ABILITY [#] OF TIMES IN A ROW!! type of abilities.

Originally Posted by Lyth

A combo gated by resources that can only be performed at certain time intervals? That sounds suspiciously like Gnashing Fang to me.

Except that each step of Gnashing Fang is useless outside of the combo. And let's be real, Gnashing Fang is anything but gated by the ressource, since you'll have more than enough cartridge anytime its cooldown comes up.
Like I said, the skill doesn't need to be new, the mechanic of the job does. No job has skills that are both in and out of a combo.

Originally Posted by Hazama999

I [Dark Arts] didn't [Dark Arts] enjoy [Dark Arts] the [Dark Arts] Dark Arts [Dark Arts] spam

Spamming [Edge Of Shadow] darsikde [Edge of Shadow] skills [Edge of Shadow] is not that much different. The only difference is the MP cost, so they could simply have made Dark Arts cost more MP/add more potency and voilà ! Spamming problem solved !

There is a lot of ignorance in this thread about the new Delirium.

The focus of DRK is oGCD optimization under buffs while juggling mp to prevent cap and thirst. Because of this and the loss of aggro combos which were avoided in optimal play, DRK has only one combo to use.

However, just spamming Souleater feels tedious and here is the geniality of Delirium: At single target, it gives you Blackblood halt and mana generation break so you can weave your other oGCDs better without worrying about capping your resources. At multi-target, it gives you a mana generation boost for extra Floods of Shadow while still providing Blackblood halt.

Why is Blackblood halt important? First, because you don't want to cap. Second, you want to preemptively build Blood for Living Shadow, halting gives you a window to dump your oGCDs without worries while still monitoring your Blood with no DPS loss.