5.0 DRK has a Solid foundation, here's why.

**Arsthan** · 07-04-2019 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by Lyth

Having Delirium unlock a special combo is effectively the same as Gnashing Fang. Which, in turn, is the same as most potency boosting cooldowns.

There's not a problem with Delirium being functionally similar to Inner Release, any more than there's a problem with Living Shadow being functionally similar to a DoT. It's not that it lacks complexity. It's the fact that people are identifying it as being a specifically "WAR themed" action, despite the fact that the two windows don't really function the same.

I don't actually think that the issue is Delirium at all, though. The issue is with Bloodspiller and Quietus. From a purely flavour perspective, they could probably stand to do something a little more interesting, be it stealing a small amount of HP and/or a small amount of MP at baseline, which could then be enhanced through Delirium. But I'd like to see what the actual numbers end up being before suggesting something that's a potency boost.

I think you have to be extremely careful with changes to MP generation, though. If you make resource generation too easy, you take the decision making out of the job.

As an example, you can't burn off the extra blood generated by BW under Delirium. So you have to be careful when those two windows show up together. Likewise, you can't generate blood under Delirium, so you need to prepare an adequate amount of blood in advance if Living Shadow is coming off cooldown at the same time. This is what makes it fundamentally different from something like Inner Release, in which everything is free.

The point wasn't the unlocked combo, that would be just a different animation or just flavor if you will, maybe some other effects added to it too. The point was that it could be more of entering a frenzied state where you attack faster, but it drains blood over time for example - slightly similar to what Darkside did with your MP. You can make it so you cannot aquire blood in this state or whatever. It was just somethin I pulled out of my butt on the spot and sure as hell wasn't meant to be taken as a serious change. Just a proof of concept. Not to mention that DRK has never been a burst oriented job - they could have just went with the sustain theme it had going for it since the beginning and balance DRK around that. There was no need for a burst phase in the first place, they just could some potency to the job on some skills to balance it out compared to Burst jobs like WAR.

Delirium is just boring to use and BS has a part in the reason too. The sound effect and animation just don't go well with being spammed. Hitting multiple Fell Cleaves feels good (for the ones that like WAR anyway) because the animation is awesome, feels impactful as hell and the sound effect is perfect. It hitting hard is even more of a bonus. I like BS, but I'd definitely prefer it being used the way it was in SB. The usage of them felt great whenever you had enough blood and one could look forward to hitting with it. In a way, the feeling reminds me of hitting with Fell Cleave in 3.0. BS just shouldn't be spammed, it kind of kills the beauty of the skills, for me anyway. Opinions might differ.

Also, unpopular opinion but I loved Delirium in SB. Might have not been really that OP, but it felt good to extend BW for the extra MP and most Blood used on Delirium recovered through the use of the longer BW. It was plain, but effective - it was unique and could have been just buffed instead of reworking it. That said, if they buffed it, they obviously would bring back the old BW.

As for the MP thing... I just don't see the decision making in DRK right now. You start with 2 EoS for the Darkside timer, keep enough MP for TBN. Then you gather enough MP so you can use EoS within TA windows along with Delirium while not overcapping on MP, which if you do then I don't know what to tell you. I just don't see it... I like the idea of keeping up Dark Side, but it's way too easy to keep it up without even trying.

**RatCopter** · 07-04-2019 05:35 AM

Given I had major reservations from the job action trailer up until launch, I've found myself pleasantly surprised with DRK operates now. TBN -> Edge feels very satisfying to pull off, and it reminds me of the kind of interaction between HW Dark Dance and Low Blow, only with the setup and the payoff being far more noticable. It's very well done, and I hope that in future iterations the devs will build upon the concept of retributive damage.

I agree with your premise, OP, but a few things I do not.

Originally Posted by Deathshiro

Delirium - Is fine as is. Can it be improved? Of course, but its function works and the 5x of 1 button is not awful design, its certainly better than just giving us more blood weapon w/a resource cost.
Bloodspiller/Quietus - They feel good to use & perform well, only improvement I'd suggest is to give them both 400 flat mana per use. Doing this would give delirium windows a free flood/edge, instead of current delirium which only gens half a mana spender with natural regen. Even if untouched it works well.
Salted Earth - Surprisingly works, but feels like its there to be removed for next expansion. Theres not much you can really add to it that wouldn't infringe on the current foundation of DRK. Its a button you press and forget about in single target, and does decent damage aoe. I'd only suggest that it gives HP back per tick per enemy maybe, but I cant really think of anything else. Suggestions in comments would be welcome.

Delirium is kinda... brainless, if I was totally honest. It's not wholly unwelcome to me, as I caught myself enjoying the Bloodspiller spam a little, but while I wouldn't call it awful design, I would call it uninspired, considering how many ways they could have took it. That, and the mana generation doesn't quite seem befitting of a 90s cooldown skill, to me at least.

Bloodspiller is an improvement: I like the fact that I don't have to reserve mana to use in tangent with blood. It is streamlined and dumbed down, but considering that's the theme of ShB, I'll take it. Quietus feels underwhelming by comparison, however.

Salted Earth was nerfed and I'm still struggling to understand why. I can understand the removal of the blood gain, as it'd leave you with odd numbers in your blood gauge, but the cooldown up, damage and duration down seem a little overbearing to me. As you said, it's like it's there to be removed later

I'd also like to see Blood Weapon rolled back to the way it was, but that's just personal preference.

**jetfire117** · 07-04-2019 09:00 AM

Dude I love these changes, but even I can admit as of right now delirium and quietus are not fine. These skills need to have other effects or something. Also not all of our oGCDs need to be on a minute cooldown. Quietus needs to regain mana on more than one enemy on hit, only 600mp for one enemy hit in a pack is hilarious bad and stupid.

**Dio_Tiferet** · 07-04-2019 01:43 PM

Funny enough the Dark arts spam of 4.0 required more braincells to maximize its efficiency than the entire 5.0 DRK skillset combined.

5.0 DKR PlaYing gUIde~~

1 - souleater combo
2 - hit your 60 seconds cooldown ogcds the moment they are up
3 - Inner release 5x buttspiller

5.0 dKr OpTiOnAL ~~

1 - save 3k mana for tbn
2 - hope tbn actually breaks
3 - Pop living shadow and count how many seconds it takes for it to actually start doing something
4 - build 4.5k skillspeed DRK and remember all the good times you used to have

**Hazama999** · 07-04-2019 01:50 PM

I [Dark Arts] didn't [Dark Arts] enjoy [Dark Arts] the [Dark Arts] Dark Arts [Dark Arts] spam... but I share a similar sentiment as some of the comments up there regarding Delirium: it feels uninspired.

I have long since stopped caring about WOWWEEE ZOWEEE! YOU CAN DO [X] ABILITY [#] OF TIMES IN A ROW!! type of abilities.

**Cosaint** · 07-04-2019 02:12 PM

There is a lot of ignorance in this thread about the new Delirium.

The focus of DRK is oGCD optimization under buffs while juggling mp to prevent cap and thirst. Because of this and the loss of aggro combos which were avoided in optimal play, DRK has only one combo to use.

However, just spamming Souleater feels tedious and here is the geniality of Delirium: At single target, it gives you Blackblood halt and mana generation break so you can weave your other oGCDs better without worrying about capping your resources. At multi-target, it gives you a mana generation boost for extra Floods of Shadow while still providing Blackblood halt.

Why is Blackblood halt important? First, because you don't want to cap. Second, you want to preemptively build Blood for Living Shadow, halting gives you a window to dump your oGCDs without worries while still monitoring your Blood with no DPS loss.

**Dio_Tiferet** · 07-04-2019 02:23 PM

The only way you can overcap on 5.0 DRK is if you play your skills one by one by going Menu -> actions -> job -> "action"

Saying Dark arts or resource management justifies this hellishly boring and handholding design is beyond anything ill ever be able to understand.

**Cosaint** · 07-04-2019 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Dio_Tiferet

The only way you can overcap on 5.0 DRK is if you play your skills one by one by going Menu -> actions -> job -> "action"

Saying Dark arts or resource management justifies this hellishly boring and handholding design is beyond anything ill ever be able to understand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule

Also your second argument, is completely biased. You can't use your own feelings to define a norm.

**Vaerum** · 07-04-2019 04:03 PM

Random thoughts concerning drk skills since I'm bored at work on a night shift.
Delirium - For the next 15 seconds, any skill that uses blood refunds a portion of mana. Any skill that uses mana refunds a portion of blood. All blood/mana gains from combo skills are doubled.
The refund % from blood to mana and vice versa can be used as a tuning knob to control the damage output of the cooldown, same with the duration. The idea is to preserve some of the gameplay of the aoe style that drk had in SB, converting blood to mp and back again. You'd still keep using your main 123 combo to help fuel your meters, but would be using your BS/Edges at a very increased rate because each would help partially fill the other. At least this way you're still dealing with resource management, and you're not stuck spamming a single attack.

Living Shadow - The last 3 abilities used by the DRK (not including def% increases) will be copied by your shadow. 1 min cooldown, 50 blood. 3k mana. (maybe no mana)
The resource cost might be a little extensive, but having an ability that mimics your last three can bring a lot of decision making into the class, plus it feels like our final ability should eat up both of our resources. In an aoe pack? Save up some resource so you can flood twice and quietus, then pop the shadow to double up that aoe damage. Getting hit really hard? AD/SE/TBN and pop it for an extra burst of healing and shielding.
Might be a little bit too strong including TBN in it, but I like the idea of your shadow being able to come out and throw out attacks you want it to, according to the situation at hand, and it takes some forethought of which resources you wanna use/spend to really maximize it.

**Seraphor** · 07-04-2019 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Vaerum

Random thoughts concerning drk skills since I'm bored at work on a night shift.
Delirium - For the next 15 seconds, any skill that uses blood refunds a portion of mana. Any skill that uses mana refunds a portion of blood. All blood/mana gains from combo skills are doubled.
The refund % from blood to mana and vice versa can be used as a tuning knob to control the damage output of the cooldown, same with the duration. The idea is to preserve some of the gameplay of the aoe style that drk had in SB, converting blood to mp and back again.

I like this.
To build on it, I'd suggest that under Delirium, Bloodspiller/Quietus each generate 1600 MP, and Edge/Flood each generate 30 Blood.
The idea here is that going into Delerium with full MP and Blood will allow you to sustain an extended Bloodspiller/Edge of Shadow combo, basically for every 2 you use, you get another one back.
It's slightly fewer Bloodspillers that you can spam, but it's more Edge's you can weave, and I think that would be a much more fun burst phase.
It would also encourage you to save resource, rather than spending everything on cooldown as it is atm.

Thread: 5.0 DRK has a Solid foundation, here's why.

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