Loss of drain on Blm...really?!

[Archwizard]

I didn't say about RDM and Vercure what you seem to think I said. I've been pretty clear in this thread about the distinction between using Vercure properly and using it just because the RDM thinks they are supposed to be a healer.

Then you missed the point about what I said. I wasn't simply mounting a defense for Vercure, I was noting that your philosophy of "keep things out of the game that less-experienced players won't understand and will misuse" is neither universal, helpful to the growth of the game, nor highlighting anything particularly more harmful to the players themselves than they'd face elsewhere in their learning curve. Someone using Vercure in an attempt to heal allies when it's unnecessary for them to is little different than them fullcasting Veraero/thunder or using Scatter in single-target -- all things I have seen at low levels -- because it presents a fundamental misunderstanding of the job itself and its abilities.

It means they're a bad player. There's nothing you can do about them except educate them not to use those skills that way. It in itself doesn't amount to a defense against skills that require a little more understanding of when to use them, because at the end of the day that's literally what every rotation is built on.

Afflatus Misery and such don't belong in this discussion. DPS is literally everyone's job, and healing uptime is never required at 100%, so that remains an apples and oranges comparison. A healer using supporting DPS while healing is not required is doing their job properly, while a DPS has virtually nothing useful or necessary to do except DPS except in the event of emergency.

And I have all but explicitly said such healing tools would be for emergencies anyway.
The reason I brought up "Afflatus Misery and such" is that there doesn't necessarily need to be any kind of monopoly on healing or damage -- if a healer can have one of the highest potency AoEs in the game, I don't see why BLM can't spare a slot for a quick self-heal.

Sure, we could have a buffed Drain that healed significant HP, but I doubt it will happen. If anything I could see a Second Wind sort of skill for the ranged DPS role, but I've gone so long without one that I never thought about it until this thread popped up.

Two things.

First, again, two of the caster DPS jobs already have healing skills, which is I believe to be a large part of why the devs found Drain unnecessary, so I don't see such a role action in our future.

Second, I've also seen proposals for a revival of the Necrogenesis action for THMs that is essentially Bloodbath for spells. The major problem I've had with it, which is much the same as your Second Wind proposal, is that we already have Manaward for a no-risk survival cooldown. The intent of adding a spammable heal aside is so you can have an option for the other 83% of the time you don't have access to it, or for when Manaward simply... fails.

[Cynfael]

Then you missed the point about what I said. I wasn't simply mounting a defense for Vercure, I was noting that your philosophy of "keep things out of the game that less-experienced players won't understand and will misuse" is neither universal, helpful to the growth of the game, nor highlighting anything particularly harmful to the players themselves. Someone using Vercure in an attempt to heal allies when it's unnecessary for them to is little different than them fullcasting Veraero/thunder or using Scatter in single-target -- all things I have seen at low levels -- because it presents a fundamental misunderstanding of the job itself and its abilities.

It means they're a bad player. There's nothing you can do about them except educate them not to use those skills that way. It in itself doesn't amount to a defense against skills that require a little more understanding of when to use them, because at the end of the day that's literally what every rotation is built on.



And I have all but explicitly said such healing tools would be for emergencies anyway.
The reason I brought up "Afflatus Misery and such" is that there doesn't necessarily need to be any kind of monopoly on healing or damage -- if a healer can have one of the highest potency AoEs in the game, I don't see why BLM can't spare a slot for a quick self-heal.



Two things.

First, again, two of the caster DPS jobs already have healing skills, which is I believe to be a large part of why the devs found Drain unnecessary, so I don't see such a role action in our future.

Second, I've also seen proposals for a revival of the Necrogenesis action for THMs that is essentially Bloodbath for spells. The major problem I've had with it, which is much the same as your Second Wind proposal, is that we already have Manaward for a no-risk survival cooldown. The intent of adding a spammable heal aside is so you can have an option for the other 83% of the time you don't have access to it, or for when Manaward simply... fails.

I respect your position here, but I think I've already made my points and won't rehash them again except to clarify that my position isn't simply to cut things that might encourage bad gameplay. More specifically I think there is some onus on game developers to design in such a way that makes gameplay intuitive for the majority, and I think that the removal of Drain is simply a form of decluttering since the spell doesn't fill any necessary niche. Vercure, on the other hand, does fill a niche of sorts and also contributes to the RDM job identity, so I wouldn't suggest that it be removed even though I dislike the way many players use it.

Physick is a garbage spell for SMN and should have just been removed. I know very little about 5.0 SMN at this point, but in the past the job went through periods of being valued for both high DPS and high utility, so it's understandable why their Physick was never made to scale off their INT on top of everything else they brought to the table. Granted, like Vercure, a functional SMN Physick would be completely irrelevant in situations where everything was going right, but progression is still a thing, so I don't doubt that leaving Physick alone was a deliberate choice.