Loss of drain on Blm...really?!

[JowyAtreides]

Hon, we didn't used to have a regen buff in solo content. This made certain solo content, even job specific quests, extremely challenging on certain jobs. It's really not that different from the fact that while Titan-Egi was pretty much always shit, the removal of Titan-Egi as an actual tank pet had people legitimately worried about how one would do quite a few of the solo duties in both the summoner job quests and MSQ as Summoner.

You're also ignoring the fact that more than half the general population of the game *are* in fact bad players (which is fine, they have a right to enjoy the game, too), and if there's any content that it's reasonable to give them an extra boost on, it's *solo* content that's intended for *everyone* to enjoy.

Wasn't Drain and the solo content regen buff both introduced in Stormblood?

As it was, it was a rubbish skill that either needed changing, or removing.

I wouldn't have been adverse to it becoming more useful or impactful, but we'd then enter the territory of BLM's being far too universally overpowered. We already do a significant amount more dps than other classes, we already have the best shield in the game, we already have the best situational mobility skill (aetherial manipulation on a 10 second cd) and we already have one of the best downtime management mechanics (umbral soul).

To now want a sustain in the form of heals is a little greedy if you ask me.

[YanderePrincess]

Wasn't Drain and the solo content regen buff both introduced in Stormblood?

I honestly can't remember, exactly, but I don't think the regen buff was introduced until later on in Stormblood?

[Raikai]

It was garbage, but I think it should've been buffed to actual usefulness than removal. I mean, it's a personal heal... And even it it was buffed, doubtly it would be competitive with Vercure.

[Archwizard]

I love how everyone writing "Drain was trash/garbage/useless/bad/etc" is completely ignoring that the devs could've just... buffed it? Higher potency, higher healing percentage, shorter cast time, lower MP cost, literally all of those are tuning knobs to make a better version. I've even seen it suggested to just have it replace Scathe.

I mean, look at the new PVP version for instance: The potency of both damage and healing increases as your HP gets lower. Yeah it's a cooldown but it's also free and instant.

Sure it was niche and mainly useful for soloing, but considering that leveling and world content are solo content (not to mention Eureka and whatever strange descendants that come of it) and we're at the beginning of the expansion anyway, I don't really see the issue.

It seems to me the primary opposition to just returning a buffed version of Drain to BLM is that a form of self-healing that comes at the cost of damage is not appealing to raiders, which... not every skill has to appeal to raiding, costing damage to improve your survivability is a viable trade if the conversion rate is fair (Titan-Egi says hi), a DPS shouldn't be able to overcome the need for a healer much as a healer shouldn't be able to out-damage a DPS, and giving each job access to greater self-healing opens avenues for mechanics where everyone has to pitch in to survive (that's already like half the point of Manaward, right?).
And personally, if we're gonna give Vercure and Physick (hopefully in a state where it actually scales with Int) to casters, I don't see why BLM's personal survivability should be bolted purely to a CD.

[Orbus]

Sure they could have buffed it.
They could have done it SB and they could have done it in ShB.
But they didn't and were never going to, the fact that they outright removed it is proof enough of that.
They don't like significant and reliable self healing unless its a healer because they don't want you to cheese your way through your punishment for screwing up, it's the same reason potions have never and will never restore enough hp to matter in raids or trials.

Red mage is a special case though.
It goes against what I said above, but take those things away and it's not a red mage anymore.

[Cynfael]

Sure they could have buffed it.
They could have done it SB and they could have done it in ShB.
But they didn't and were never going to, the fact that they outright removed it is proof enough of that.
They don't like significant and reliable self healing unless its a healer because they don't want you to cheese your way through your punishment for screwing up, it's the same reason potions have never and will never restore enough hp to matter in raids or trials.

Red mage is a special case though.
It goes against what I said above, but take those things away and it's not a red mage anymore.

Frankly I always disliked that Red Mage had Vercure because so many players don't respect it as a clutch utility but instead take it as license to waste time backseat healing in situations that don't call for it. Similar issue with Paladin's Clemency, but at least that one has enabled them to set off their own Divine Veils and provided sustain in event of healer death or MP starvation.

If you give your average player a spell or ability, chances are that they are going to assume that it's there to be used, and Drain is one of those spells that muddies the waters and gives less experienced players a skewed notion of what their class and role should be doing. Clearly there are players in this thread who fully understand the proper context for skills like that, and I can get their perspective even if I have never shared it (e.g. again, Drain was so horribly bad at both things it purported to do that I had no use for it, period). Vercure isn't going anywhere because players expect Red Mage to have White magic, and thematically this seems to require that they have a heal. At least it's actually a somewhat effective heal, so the problem isn't with the skill but with the players who misuse it.

Finally, the other big reason I dislike spammable healing skills being granted to non-healers is that healers in this game have complained for years that there isn't enough healing to do, which is one of the central points of the never-ending and tiresome healer DPS-or-not-to-DPS debate. If you don't need to heal as a healer job, you should be hitting something; however, players who purely want to heal and don't want to delve significantly into DPS gameplay while on a healer are left twiddling their thumbs and being dead weight when healing requirements are easily satisfied. In this somewhat strict trinity model, when tanks and DPS have viable, spammable heals, you often end up with a lot of confusion and inefficiency as other roles drop their actual jobs and overlap with the healer.

In solo content, a healing chocobo is pretty overpowered, and the solo duties for DPS are designed not to require player sustain. It's not wrong for people who liked Drain for some reason or another to ask for it, but I think it's better gone.

[YanderePrincess]

the solo duties for DPS are designed not to require player sustain.

You'd think that, but (as one example) one of the RDM job quest duties pre-Vercure seemed to require it. Drain was the only thing that got me through it. Theoretically, it's possible without Drain, but the unavoidable damage in that duty was a major problem. Though, we now get a health regen buff in solo duties, so that might be enough to make up the difference there.

[Orbus]

Finally, the other big reason I dislike spammable healing skills being granted to non-healers is that healers in this game have complained for years that there isn't enough healing to do, which is one of the central points of the never-ending and tiresome healer DPS-or-not-to-DPS debate.

Certainly
Ironic that the classes dedicated to healing are always complaining about there not being enough incoming damage but will try as hard as they can to squeeze out what meager dps they can on a class type with the worst dps, while many dps players essentially want the kind of self healing that would render the healing classes pointless even if it means killing their own dps in the process.

[Archwizard]

Sure they could have buffed it.
They could have done it SB and they could have done it in ShB.
But they didn't and were never going to, the fact that they outright removed it is proof enough of that.

Sure, and they removed Apocatastasis and Erase too. Look how many threads say that was a mistake.

I would argue that removing Drain wasn't out of a lack of interest in ever buffing it, but more likely out of the devs realizing it wasn't necessary as a DPS role action, particularly when only one of the jobs with access to it didn't already have a self-healing skill (even if Physick is just as bad if not worse). As a role action it would have to be balanced around equal accessibility; in the hands of one job, it just has to be balanced around that job.

If you give your average player a spell or ability, chances are that they are going to assume that it's there to be used, and Drain is one of those spells that muddies the waters and gives less experienced players a skewed notion of what their class and role should be doing.

True, in my time healing in Stormblood, I ran into several Arcanists who used Drain and Break as part of their core rotation.

... And at the same time there are players who outright refuse to ever use DoTs, either because they don't understand them, "don't like using them" or think the loss in damage is negligible. There are players who use Addle on CD, even on dungeon bosses with zero spells. There are players who use Enochian after every Foul cast because they think it's consumed, who mistake Scathe for an oGCD, or who throw out Fire IIs in single-target.
I believe there was an interview where Yoshi-P called those "bad players" and stated there was nothing that could be done about them.

How much should the devs balance jobs around the players who entirely misuse them? Should they simply go to the extreme of reducing each job to the fewest possible buttons, in the effort to minimize confusion?

Finally, the other big reason I dislike spammable healing skills being granted to non-healers is that healers in this game have complained for years that there isn't enough healing to do, which is one of the central points of the never-ending and tiresome healer DPS-or-not-to-DPS debate.

... and that's the fault of the DPS who already don't have any self-healing skills to use?
Or is that perhaps the fault of encounter design, versus the healer's access to HoTs and barriers that allow them to be somewhat lazy in that regard?

In solo content, a healing chocobo is pretty overpowered,

Sure. After you've leveled a chocobo -- completely optional and easily missable content -- and invested points in the healing tree. Nevermind that solo duties or Eureka exist, or that there are two other trees to invest in.

[Cynfael]

Sure, and they removed Apocatastasis and Erase too. Look how many threads say that was a mistake.

I would argue that removing Drain wasn't out of a lack of interest in ever buffing it, but more likely out of the devs realizing it wasn't necessary as a DPS role action, particularly when only one of the jobs with access to it didn't already have a self-healing skill (even if Physick is just as bad if not worse). As a role action it would have to be balanced around equal accessibility; in the hands of one job, it just has to be balanced around that job.



True, in my time healing in Stormblood, I ran into several Arcanists who used Drain and Break as part of their core rotation.

... And at the same time there are players who outright refuse to ever use DoTs, either because they don't understand them, "don't like using them" or think the loss in damage is negligible. There are players who use Addle on CD, even on dungeon bosses with zero spells. There are players who use Enochian after every Foul cast because they think it's consumed, who mistake Scathe for an oGCD, or who throw out Fire IIs in single-target.
I believe there was an interview where Yoshi-P called those "bad players" and stated there was nothing that could be done about them.

How much should the devs balance jobs around the players who entirely misuse them? Should they simply go to the extreme of reducing each job to the fewest possible buttons, in the effort to minimize confusion?



... and that's the fault of the DPS who already don't have any self-healing skills to use?
Or is that perhaps the fault of encounter design, versus the healer's access to HoTs and barriers that allow them to be somewhat lazy in that regard?



Sure. After you've leveled a chocobo -- completely optional and easily missable content -- and invested points in the healing tree. Nevermind that solo duties or Eureka exist, or that there are two other trees to invest in.

Too tired to go point-by-point in quotes, so brief reply:

- Drain was a bad button. Removing it shouldn't have had any real impact for the vast majority of players. My experience may not be the same as that of the next player, but if I managed to forget it existed for so long, I imagine I wasn't the only one. Not once since Drain was introduced have I ever thought to myself, "Man, I wish I'd had Drain on my hotbar for that thing I was doing." Its removal doesn't represent any significant dumbing down of gameplay, though I do recognize that at least some players would have liked to retain it as an option.

- Big difference between inexperienced player confusion and the issue of players who should know enough to know better but still refuse to read their tooltips and make reasonably sound gameplay decisions. The former is more descriptive of the RDMs who think that their job is to heal whenever party members lose HP even when healers are present and active (because, to their way of thinking, why else do they have Vercure if not to use it?), while the latter is more what you already described.

- The chocobo comment was offhand, because no one actually has to use one, but it's also nothing that requires excessive grinding or extensive game knowledge to acquire. I don't think it's actually possible to miss obtaining your chocobo companion and still advance in the original MSQ, is it? In any case, it was a reference to another, more efficient way that players can get reliable healing for solo content if desired without wasting time with stuff like Drain.