New drk is too much fun!

[Awha]

For me personally I did enjoy the constant use of DA, while sure it was superficial I felt that SB dark knight felt like it had a more active play style. In general most classes I played during SB-- Brd, Drk, Ast,-- so far feel less engaging though I am not 80 yet so I will not pass complete judgment.

[Kiteless]

GNB is the closest thing I've got to the Heavensward DRK I loved. Current DRK just has nothing to do with that anymore, unfortunately. I was ready to give up tanking when I came back to Stormblood, the changes to DRK and WAR just made them uninteresting to play. GNB isn't perfect, but it lets me at least return to my main role.

[Sancho_Nyanta]

If Delirium were to do that, it would mess up your ability to weave your other oGCD abilities. With the 2s recast on the Edge and Flood abilites, as well as animation-locks, double-weaving oGCDs without potentially clipping your GCDs is tenuous at best. If you are spamming Edge or Flood between every GCD within 10s, you will likely not be able to take advantage of all the other stuff you would want to weave in there like CnS, AD and Plunge. You would basically be giving up your ability to utilize your other oGCDs to best effect just to give the semblance of being "different" for this one ability, when in reality you are still just spamming a single ability ~5 times and weaving other things in between, just swapping GCDs for oGCDs.

But aren't we already double weaving with the current incarnation of Delirium? Like the opener after you pop Delirium is to have 4 sets of double woven skills. Wouldn't the only difference here be that you would hit a GCD, double weave Delirium and a Darkness/Shadow to start?

So using the single target opener as my example; hit a GCD, double weave Delirium and EoS, use GCD, double weave Plunge and EoS, double weave C&S and EoS, use GCD, double weave AD and EoS, use GCD, double weave 2nd Plunge and EoS.

The GCDs themselves don't matter and can be any GCD.

I'm not sure what I'm missing that would really change what we are doing currently other than to make what we are spamming different than the other tanks in that it is a oGCD vs a GCD.

[Nimin]

Me sir, like it

[TouchandFeel]

But aren't we already double weaving with the current incarnation of Delirium? Like the opener after you pop Delirium is to have 4 sets of double woven skills. Wouldn't the only difference here be that you would hit a GCD, double weave Delirium and a Darkness/Shadow to start?

So using the single target opener as my example; hit a GCD, double weave Delirium and EoS, use GCD, double weave Plunge and EoS, double weave C&S and EoS, use GCD, double weave AD and EoS, use GCD, double weave 2nd Plunge and EoS.

The GCDs themselves don't matter and can be any GCD.

I'm not sure what I'm missing that would really change what we are doing currently other than to make what we are spamming different than the other tanks in that it is a oGCD vs a GCD.

Yes, the opener where you literally push out everything you have at your disposal because nothing is on cooldown results in double-weaving.
The difference is that the forced double-weaving from the opener happens once in a fight, not every 90s like your proposed Delirium change would result in.
Believe me, there are going to be a lot of players clipping their GCDs with the opener because of double-weaving and forced double-weaving was a frequent complaint of SB DRK. Forcing the choice between regular double-weaving or not utilizing your oGCDs to the fullest just so you can spam one ability instead of another one for the sake of convincing yourself that it is now "different" even though it admittedly is more of a superficial difference than a substantial one, just doesn't seem like a good trade-off.

I am open to ideas for how Delirium could be changed to better differentiate it from Inner Release, but most of the ideas I have seen presented so far on the forums have glaring flaws and I will not give my personal thumbs up to such.

[Lannybaby]

For me personally I did enjoy the constant use of DA, while sure it was superficial I felt that SB dark knight felt like it had a more active play style. In general most classes I played during SB-- Brd, Drk, Ast,-- so far feel less engaging though I am not 80 yet so I will not pass complete judgment.

I didn't see a problem with it, either. It was annoying at first, but I was able to get over that after seeing how much harder I hit with each DA skill. The harder I hit, the more I felt I was contributing to the party damage as a whole. Sure, it could have been implemented differently, but I only cared for the end result. Spamming 1 skill took no brain power, which allowed me to focus more on the encounter instead of using the right skill at the right time.

[Awha]

I didn't see a problem with it, either. It was annoying at first, but I was able to get over that after seeing how much harder I hit with each DA skill. The harder I hit, the more I felt I was contributing to the party damage as a whole. Sure, it could have been implemented differently, but I only cared for the end result. Spamming 1 skill took no brain power, which allowed me to focus more on the encounter instead of using the right skill at the right time.

I feel you, and I do think my "feelings" on how the class currently plays differs greatly from many, and I am glad people are enjoying the class and role. I would be lying if I said I missed the sense of impact SB DA had, and how I felt as if my fingers were always busy. Sadly I never tried HW version of DRK only started to play the game more often during the window leading up to SB though from what I could tell I would have enjoyed it greatly, I probably would have enjoyed old cleric stance for healers. Overall I have come to terms with the fact that my sense of enjoyment in a game differs greatly from man, I am hoping Gunbreaker and or Dancer do fill that void a tad moving forward if I still feel a lack of engagement with Brd, Drk and Ast.

[Sancho_Nyanta]

Snip

(Shrugs) Still not seeing a problem with doing it that way, personally, if we are already going to be double weaving as is at one point in the fight then it shouldn't be a problem to do so at other points with fewer CDs. The opener will be the hardest point, which is why I used it for this example.

Also you talk that it being different is superficial but that is like telling the people whom are complaining about the fact that the job feels too much like War that their complaints are superficial. Are we spamming 1 button made free by a 1.5 min CD? Yes but unlike War, we are doing this while spamming as many as 6 different offensive CDs each with their own CD timers that have them coming up at different points of the rotation. This is not even to speak of having to hit any defensive. Whereas War will have to single weave just 2 offensive CDs. This will make us a bit different as is since we will be looking to line as many of these up for trick windows as possible. Therefore their complaints that it is "too much like War" are pretty superficial reasons.

That being said, it isn't like it matters. This is the final version for the next 2 years and nothing on it is making it unplayable or even close to it the way that War was for the 2 different mid-patch reworks that it got. So no one should expect any real big changes at this point.

TBH I'm actually enjoying the changes, once I killed my SB muscle memory. Realistically, I personally would only like to see a few QOL changes at this point:

1) A little bit more MP regeneration, maybe making the blood attacks give 600 on hit IDK as it just seems a little slow.
2) Since TBN was increased in its shield by 25% I would love the timer get an increase to match it to the tune of an extra 2 seconds.
3) Some % of general damage mitigation added to Dark Mind for fights that don't have much/any single target magic damage, like what they did with Camouflage.
4 [personal wish]) Would REALLY like to see Salted Earth made into a targeted ability as it can sometimes be a pain for PS4 players, like myself, to have our camera in the right spot to drop it and be able to look at stuff. I'm using a macro to make this happen but I hate the macro lag from it.

[TouchandFeel]

Also you talk that it being different is superficial but that is like telling the people whom are complaining about the fact that the job feels too much like War that their complaints are superficial. Are we spamming 1 button made free by a 1.5 min CD? Yes but unlike War, we are doing this while spamming as many as 6 different offensive CDs each with their own CD timers that have them coming up at different points of the rotation. This is not even to speak of having to hit any defensive. Whereas War will have to single weave just 2 offensive CDs. This will make us a bit different as is since we will be looking to line as many of these up for trick windows as possible. Therefore their complaints that it is "too much like War" are pretty superficial reasons.

I in no way said that wanting Delirium to be more different from Inner Release is a superficial desire. If you look at the thread that I created on my thoughts and changes that I would like to see (thread here), I directly acknowledge the similarities and propose a solution to alter it. I personally am not as down on the similarity as some others seem to be, but I am able to acknowledge and understand their perspective and tried to empathize by proposing a potential solution that would hopefully provide enough differentiation to give them what they want while being something that I myself would find to be a fun addition to the kit.

What I was calling superficial was changing spamming 5 Bloodspillers to spamming 5 Edges. It's superficial, in the literal definition sense, because you are still performing the same mechanic of spamming a hard-hitting offensive ability 5 times within 10 seconds. Same thing, different coat of paint, hence superficial as opposed to a substantive change where the game-play mechanics are different, like say a % damage boost like Fight or Flight, which would imo be even more boring.
On top of that, what little difference such a change would provide, spamming oGCDs instead of GCDs, creates the discernible problem of forced double-weaving which is something that many players have said they dislike, disadvantages players with higher ping and should just really be avoided if possible. That is why I disagree with your proposal of having Delirium provide Darkside for 10s, because it doesn't change the core game-play mechanic of spamming a single ability 5 times and brings extra negative baggage along with it, while the only thing you arguably gain is being able to say that it is different in that you spam X ability instead of Y.

As for the other four changes you listed that you would like to see, I actually spoke to most of them and put forth solutions for them in my thread, so it may be worthwhile to check out.

We appear to be generally on the same page, I just feel your Darkside proposal's cons far outweigh any pros that it brings to the table.

[Sancho_Nyanta]

Actually it wasn't really a proposal. As I mentioned, I am very doubtful that we will see any big ability changes until the next expansion. It was more meant as a comment that I would have expected them to tie it with the new DA proc that they added with this expansion. My follow up comments were just me wanting to hear your thoughts on why it wouldn't work.