New drk is too much fun!

[MerlinCross]

Well, i finally got the DRK to level 80. After unloking/beating the last dungeons i decided to give Innocence Ex a try and i jumped into a blind party. So, having experienced the class at level 80 in those instances i say: Please, do not ever give an opinion about the problems of a job if do not have leveled up first. It needs some tweaks and you can like it or not but it's not broken, neither is boring to play.

If I can't even be bothered with getting it to 71, it IS boring to play. Or at the very least, clunky and doesn't feel as good as it used to play. The "Can't spam, need to hold for TBN" playstyle, Dark Arts being axed, the only real upgrades is to our AoE game which was an issue we never seemed to have, the nerfing several things or tweaks that make them feel less rewarding(Hello Blood Weapon), just; why should I play this class anymore? I'm glad you and everyone else found it exciting and new and shiny but I just can't play this edition of it.

Is it bad? I have no idea how good or bad it is but I've never played the game for the MATH. I mean AST and SCH were the kings and arguably STILL going to be, but I've stayed on WHM most the game. Heck, I played MCH through Stormblood which still felt pretty good outside of the Overheat and Wildfire nonsense.

All I'm seeing here is a claim of "It gets better 10-20 hours in". Yeah, no thank you. I hope you have fun with it but I'm looking at the other tanks or just dropping that role this expansion.

[Dio_Tiferet]

So what you are saying is DRK was insufferable because it required effort.

Which is basically the same as us saying its insufferable because now it requires no effort.

The difference here is DRK was different and there for the people who did not want a effortless WAR rotation gameplay and now its gone.

Instead of them letting SE butcher the DRK class identity and gameplay we could have just let those people play WAR.

[Zhamkyong]

So what you are saying is DRK was insufferable because it required effort.

Which is basically the same as us saying its insufferable because now it requires no effort.

The difference here is DRK was different and there for the people who did not want a effortless WAR rotation gameplay and now its gone.

Instead of them letting SE butcher the DRK class identity and gameplay we could have just let those people play WAR.

Do not twist my words. Never.

If I play as a Job that has a difficult rotation BUT it pays off its fun to play, you feel rewarded, that's what games are at the end. But if it doesn't, if every other tank does it better with less then it's insufferable. Of course DRK was still viable to use as a tank, but it fell unrewarding at most of the times. Now it has a solid foundation: it works. Maybe it's boring for some, that does not make it bad. I couldn't care less if it feels like all the tanks combined, or it feels like war like some of you claim.

"Can you raise a counterargument?"

Well first I wonder what would be classified as an acceptable counter argument. That said I think both sides of the discussion are just going to spin wheels for the next 2 years and we'll be back here again. Just depends on who is more vocal to see what changes.

Yeah, well.

The difference is at SB not only the users were more vocal, at my understanding they were WAY more in numbers and the data they provided was more solid than what others are offering right now. But this are the forums, to see who is 'right' I would like to see how many players in game keep with DRK in the months ahead, among other data. And sadly I have to agree with you: this discussion won't end anytime soon.

[Lyth]

I think it's reasonable to level a job before forming a final opinion. Failing to do so is a bit like writing a review on a piece of media without finishing it. If people wanted your guesswork on how it plays in raiding situations, couldn't they do the same themselves?

You also don't need to fate grind a job to 80 simply to validate a set pre-conceived notions on it. It's a waste of your time, because you're not having fun, and it's a waste of time for people who are looking for information on how it plays.

You might say that this is a catch-22, and it is. But such is the nature of credibility. People are generally able to tell if you're giving something a fair shot or not.

It's hard to find coherence in some of these complaints. Shadowbringers is too easy because DRK has one combo, so let's revert it back to Stormblood. What? Listen, I know that some people are confused over Delirium's role in Heavensward and thought that the job had two combos. That's fine. But what part of Stormblood did you have a second combo in?

You have people complain that the resource management is too simple, yet in the same breath demand increases in the rate of resource generation so that they don't have to worry about being stuck without MP for TBN or blood for LS. This is a resource management job. Do you want it harder, or easier? These two contradict each other.

You have people complaining about how Delirium is too simplistic, yet simultaneously take issue with the fact that missing hits under Delirium punishes your dps. No. Way. This isn't Continuation Arts, where you have 15 seconds between combo steps to grab a coffee and order a pizza. Do you want it harder, or easier?

People are complaining about TBN not breaking. Well, you're right, it doesn't break off of single target autos. That's not it's function. But do you honestly think that the devs are going to make the duration longer so that you can have more than 50% uptime on the ability? Or do you think that they're going to just nerf the mitigation value instead if you complain enough about it? This strikes me as a common sense issue.

What baffles me is that a lot of the people complaining now were the exact same people specifically complaining about DRK in Stormblood. And now you say that you want to go back to the Stormblood version? Unchanged? Because you liked it so much? What?

I don't think that DRK couldn't do without some improvements, but I was hoping for a slightly more nuanced discussion than "Lv. 71 DRK was too boring for me, so I'm playing GNB now for the pretty explosions." Good for you, I guess? You could just post that the one time and be done with it. Preferably on a blog.

I really want to see an actual discussion on this subject, but it feels like it gets drowned out in a sea of gut reaction posts.

[Ignimortis]

You have people complain that the resource management is too simple, yet in the same breath demand increases in the rate of resource generation so that they don't have to worry about being stuck without MP for TBN or blood for LS. This is a resource management job. Do you want it harder, or easier? These two contradict each other.

You have people complaining about how Delirium is too simplistic, yet simultaneously take issue with the fact that missing hits under Delirium punishes your dps. No. Way. This isn't Continuation Arts, where you have 15 seconds between combo steps to grab a coffee and order a pizza. Do you want it harder, or easier?

I don't think that DRK couldn't do without some improvements, but I was hoping for a slightly more nuanced discussion than "Lv. 71 DRK was too boring for me, so I'm playing GNB now for the pretty explosions." Good for you, I guess? You could just post that the one time and be done with it. Preferably on a blog.

I really want to see an actual discussion on this subject, but it feels like it gets drowned out in a sea of gut reaction posts.

I'd say that being stuck without MP for TBN is a user's fault. But I do want increased resource generation - not because it's hard to keep some MP in reserve for TBN, but because you blow it on EoS twice and then it takes at least 20 seconds (if you use BW) or more to get it back, just to blow it on one or two oGCDs again. Basically, what I liked about SB DRK can be very well done in ShB without reverting back to Dark Arts.

Remove +10% damage from Darkside, replace it with +10% or +15% skill+spell speed. Increase mana regen from Syphon Strike/Stalwart Soul to 1k, so that you gain a FoS/EoS use in three combos. Minor HP drain on Quietus (probably 50% of damage?) or lower (20-30 seconds) CD on Abyssal Drain would be welcome too. Salted Earth doesn't have any purpose anymore, not sure what can be done with it, it's a boring stationary dot on a 90 second cooldown - it used to make sense when it gave you Blood, now it feels like a holdover that will be gone in 6.0.

Maybe do something about Delirium, too. Many people aren't having fun being forced to just drop everything and spam 5 Bloodspillers in a row every 90 seconds.

[Reynhart]

I think it's reasonable to level a job before forming a final opinion.

On most cases, this is totally right. The issue with DRK is that its single target gameplay doesn't change at all until level 80. Which doubles on why people could consider it boring, especially compared to PLD, whose rotation changes several times. It's very different from SB DRK where TBN would change the whole dynamic in content.

Shadowbringers is too easy because DRK has one combo, so let's revert it back to Stormblood. What? Listen, I know that some people are confused over Delirium's role in Heavensward and thought that the job had two combos. That's fine. But what part of Stormblood did you have a second combo in?

SB DRK had issues, and, at least from my point of vies, ShB didn't really fix much of them. Yes, we had only one combo, and I'd have liked if they kept the power slash combo in ShB but make it useful, by tying a buff or debuff to it instead of removing it. A speed buff would have been nice, since none of the other tanks have it, and DRK always had something that makes it a little faster than others. The DRK arts spam also wasn't "fixed" but only replaced with Edge/Flood spam, only reducing it a little by the mp cost. Also, in SB, Darkside was a non issue, especially compared to HW, but right now, it's still a non issue.

What baffles me is that a lot of the people complaining now were the exact same people specifically complaining about DRK in Stormblood.

Yes, because some changes can feel worse than what they were supposed to fix, it's not that inconceivable. Like I said on other topics, HW "solution" for BRD not doing enough damage what to make it a turret. It didn't worked well.

[Zhamkyong]

Yes, because some changes can feel worse than what they were supposed to fix, it's not that inconceivable. Like I said on other topics, HW "solution" for BRD not doing enough damage what to make it a turret. It didn't worked well.

That is a entire diferent scenario. In that case BRD (Or MCH since it started at 30) was a mobile DPS, and then out of nowere you got a skill that made you a archer caster. In this case we got rid of Dark Arts as a skill, but the weaving went to Edge/flow of shadow and other skills you can use in the middle of your combo. It's not the 'same' in some terms, but we still got that pushing button.

[Reynhart]

In that case BRD (Or MCH since it started at 30) was a mobile DPS, and then out of nowere you got a skill that made you a archer caster.

Precisely, BRD was a weaker DPS because it was mobile, and people replied that mobility is overrated compared to high DPS number. That's why SE decided to make BRD a turret, and suddently, people missed there "overrated" mobility. In the end, it doesn't change the fact that a "fix" can be worse than the initial issue.

In this case we got rid of Dark Arts as a skill, but the weaving went to Edge/flow of shadow and other skills you can use in the middle of your combo. It's not the 'same' in some terms, but we still got that pushing button.

Yes, DRK is still roughly the same, without, at least for me, the feeling of synergy between Dark Arts and other skills. Which, again speaking for me, makes it less engaging.On top of the speed lost, and the various skills that, although niche, where fun to use here and there.

[shao32]

snip

DRK lose a lot of his mechanical identity, it's normal some ppl prefer come back to SB bcs at least that version hold the resource management and the buffed nature of dark arts that yeah was overused a bit, but doesn't mean get rid of it,SB have you know a lot of the original mechanics of the job, this version meaby have more or less the same rate of use of the MP of HW, but lacks all the unique mechanics of that version.

Harder or easy tend to be a bit relative too since SB wasn't incredible harder either but I consider is more about busy Vs slow, the APM has been one of the biggest complaints too.

And for last delirium is a mechanic that don't fit the job at all, present already on WAR and PLD delirium shouldn't be like that, I personally consider this is what makes ppl more upset about the job, it's clearly a copy and they should design delirium to work differently but they choose being lazy instead. On my personal opinion I could live with this version of DRK if delirium was different but since is doesn't it just kill the fun I have with DRK in the past, if I want to play with this mechanic I will play WAR, at least they have it more integrated to his gameplay and feels a lot better to play, DRK version just feel like a mechanic they fit by force there after find they removed everything and the job gets to PLD arr levels of gameplay.

[Dio_Tiferet]

Do not twist my words. Never.

If I play as a Job that has a difficult rotation BUT it pays off its fun to play, you feel rewarded, that's what games are at the end. But if it doesn't, if every other tank does it better with less then it's insufferable. Of course DRK was still viable to use as a tank, but it fell unrewarding at most of the times. Now it has a solid foundation: it works. Maybe it's boring for some, that does not make it bad. I couldn't care less if it feels like all the tanks combined, or it feels like war like some of you claim. .

Sorry but all i am hearing here is I dont want to put in more effort than others unless it makes my performance marginally better if not just turn this class into another WAR so i dont have to work and who cares about all these people who enjoyed what this class offers in terms of gameplay.

This rework is huge slap in the face for all the people who kept playing DRK because they loved the way it was played despite it lagging behind of PLD and WAR in SB in terms of performance.