RDM thoughts and tuning needed

[Leidiriv]

There exists a mana range (20-180) where you could either execute a weaponskill or cast spells. That those weaponskills are the wrong choice during much of this range is irrelevant; they are usable. There's also a range (160-180ish) where you could execute a combo or continue to cast spells. Because of this, all that "hypothetical" mana is real mana.

Okay, say we're at 200 mana (or, since we're not barbarians and want to guarantee the Stone/Fire proc off Holy/Flare, 199). We can't possibly generate any more mana. Does the melee combo still have the extra "cost" of the 28-35 mana you could have generated in that time?

[Almandaragal]

It's funny that you use Verraise as your example, because Verraise is the one spell that's actually in a better position now.

But anyway for anyone who wants it, here's a comparison of our costs pre-/post- ShB.

Spell         SB cost    SB cost%    ShB cost    ShB cost%    Change
Jolt              360      2.500%         300       3.000%      +20%
Verstone          360      2.500%         300       3.000%      +20%
Verfire           360      2.500%         300       3.000%      +20%
Veraero           480      3.333%         400       4.000%      +20%
Verthunder        480      3.333%         400       4.000%      +20%
Verholy           600      4.167%         500       5.000%      +20%
Verflare          600      4.167%         500       5.000%      +20%
Scorch           ----      -----          500       5.000%      ----
Vercure           600      4.167%         500       5.000%      +20%
Scatter           480      3.333%         400       4.000%      +20%
Verraise         3600     25.000%        2400      24.000%       -4%

Thanks for that. I guess my post seemed a little convoluted since I didn't have the same access to numbers that you seem to. I found a link to the old job guide, so I could see the actual MP changes (reductions, hence the 10-20% reduction bit), but I didn't have access to what our old MP pool was, so getting those percentages wasn't something I could do.

So yeah, Verraise is "better" off now, but our MP regen took such an overall nerf that everything else drains us so much that raising may not even be an option. Fortunately, a small MP cost reduction would balance this much better. If we can't compete DPS wise, nor much utility wise, the least they can do is make it so we aren't going to run out of MP if we keep Lucid Dreaming on cooldown.

[Rongway]

Okay, say we're at 200 mana (or, since we're not barbarians and want to guarantee the Stone/Fire proc off Holy/Flare, 199). We can't possibly generate any more mana. Does the melee combo still have the extra "cost" of the 28-35 mana you could have generated in that time?

That scenario isn't worth considering until we've already assigned value to a point of mana. What we are interested in are question like

• Should I spend my mana on E.Reprise or should I spend it on E.Riposte...Scorch?
• Should I spend my mana on E.Reprise or should I waste mana by overcapping?
• Should I spend my mana on E.Moulinet during this trash pull or should I save it for E.Riposte...Scorch?

If we're going to answer these questions, then we need to take into account not only the mana that we're spending but also the mana we're not generating because we've given up a certain period of spellcasting in order to perform the spender. Spending X mana doesn't delay the next spender by X mana. Because all the spenders are on the GCD, they meaningfully delay the next spender by the mana that would have been generated if you'd used generator actions instead. Therefore, we have to take into account the foregone mana as an additional cost of using the spender. Only then can we measure one spender against another. Then, once we know what each spender is worth, we can set our expected potency-per-mana based on the spender with the highest return. Then we can assign value to the overcap mana in your scenario and arrive at the conclusion that it's obviously a damage loss to continue to cast spells if you're at 199 and you have the opportunity to perform a complete combo.

[ArniQQ]

Red Mage is pretty bad at the moment. They are the 3rd lowest dps behind Dancer and Ninja. Ninja has Trick Attack, and Dancer's utility is beyond everything else in this game. Red Mage's MP problems makes him / her bad at it's only niche; res bitch for progression raiding.


I'm sorry to day, but I think Red Mage is currently the worst DPS class, and the worst class in the game along with Astro.

[XiXiQ]

I like what they've done with RDM just fine, my main concern is with the MP as well. Particularly with long fights, you are barely holding on even using mana regen. Die just after pressing that button and it's very awkward. Too many times I've automatically gone to raise a downed healer, and not enough MP in the tank. I'm OK with the displacement/engagement thing, with just displacement there were plenty of times it had to be dropped just to stop you landing in crap or pinging over the edge. It would also be nice to be able to use corps-a-corps on an ally to get out of tight spots. (minus the damage of course haha). And yes, a little more grunt for the DPS would be perfect.

[Typhoria]

Red Mage is pretty bad at the moment. They are the 3rd lowest dps behind Dancer and Ninja. Ninja has Trick Attack, and Dancer's utility is beyond everything else in this game. Red Mage's MP problems makes him / her bad at it's only niche; res bitch for progression raiding.


I'm sorry to day, but I think Red Mage is currently the worst DPS class, and the worst class in the game along with Astro.

Can't even be a dedicated rezzer currently. Basically we just offer embolden, which weighted against SMN is nothing.

[SaberMaxwell]

Red Mage is pretty bad at the moment. They are the 3rd lowest dps behind Dancer and Ninja. Ninja has Trick Attack, and Dancer's utility is beyond everything else in this game. Red Mage's MP problems makes him / her bad at it's only niche; res bitch for progression raiding.


I'm sorry to day, but I think Red Mage is currently the worst DPS class, and the worst class in the game along with Astro.

Not even really a very good res mage. My RDM taps out of MP usually by second or third raise.

[Archwizard]

If you're going to look at it that way (and I recommend we do), you also need to account for the mana that would have been generated by the spells you're not casting during the combo. This puts the effective cost of a full melee combo at about 163 mana, as the melee combo expends 160 and generates 35 in the time that you could have generated 38 mana by casting spells.

Then I suppose by extension of that logic, wouldn't the extra 3 be cancelled out by virtue of the Verfinisher ideally proccing a Ready ability, which is 3 Mana more than Jolt?

Red Mage is pretty bad at the moment. They are the 3rd lowest dps behind Dancer and Ninja. Ninja has Trick Attack, and Dancer's utility is beyond everything else in this game. Red Mage's MP problems makes him / her bad at it's only niche; res bitch for progression raiding.


I'm sorry to day, but I think Red Mage is currently the worst DPS class, and the worst class in the game along with Astro.

Too bad Embolden's just awfully designed, between the melee limiter and the diminishing effect. Take those out and we might actually get some favorable looks after progression.

[Leidiriv]

I dunno what you guys are on about, but Embolden offers a lot of damage to the group. All the big damage is frontloaded into the first 2 tiers of the buff, which of course matches up with Trick Attack's duration. Unless y'all are lining it up so the 4% and 2% windows are what you get in Trick, it gives the group way more damage than the neutered Devotion.

[Leidiriv]

That scenario isn't worth considering until we've already assigned value to a point of mana. What we are interested in are question like

• Should I spend my mana on E.Reprise or should I spend it on E.Riposte...Scorch?
• Should I spend my mana on E.Reprise or should I waste mana by overcapping?
• Should I spend my mana on E.Moulinet during this trash pull or should I save it for E.Riposte...Scorch?

Okay, so let's consider those situations.

1) E. Reprise has a potency of 220, with a potency per second of 100. As the melee combo has a raw mana cost of 125, let's compare 6 Reprises to the melee combo.
Melee combo: 2280 potency, 10.2 seconds, "effective cost" of 158-164
Reprise: 1320, 13.2s, "effective cost" of 160-169

2) To determine that, let's compare the potency per second of all the GCD actions we can take.
Reprise: 220 pot / 2.2s = 100 pps
Jolt + Dualcast: 560 pot / 5s = 112 pps
Fire/Stone + Dualcast: 590 pot / 5s = 118 pps
Moulinet: 200 pot / 1.5s = 133.33333 pps
Melee combo: 2280 pot / 10.2s = 223.52941 pps

From there we can compare the gain each action has over normal spellcasting and attain a "potency per mana" value.
Moulinet vs verproc: Moul pps x 1.5 - verproc pps x1.5 = 22.999 / 40 (mana spent) = 0.574 ppm
Moul vs Jolt/Dual: same formula as above but plug the Jolt/Dual pps from above = 31.999 / 40 = 0.799 ppm
Reprise vs verproc: -39.6 / 20 = -1.98 ppm
Reprise vs Jolt/Dual: -26.4 / 20 = -1.32 ppm
Melee combo vs verprocs: 1076.3999 / 125 = 8.6111 ppm
Melee combo vs Jolt/Dual: 1137.5999 / 125 = 9.1007 ppm

As such, in all scenarios it is a gain to overcap mana instead of spending it on Reprise, even before adding the mana opportunity cost in. It's even a gain over Reprise to sit around for up to 2.5s without casting anything at all.

3) The ppm of Moulinet only goes up for each target you fight, whereas the ppm of the melee combo just goes down faster and faster. Let's compare at 3 targets and at 4 targets, just to get a bit of data that way.

Moul vs VerAoE 3 target: 600 / 1.5 - 1020 / 5 = 400 - 204 = 196 x 1.5 = 294 / 40 = 7.35 ppm
Melee vs VerAoE 3 target: 223.52941 - 204 = 19.52941 x 10.2 = 199.19998 / 125 = 1.59359 ppm
Moul vs VerAoE 4 target: 800 / 1.5 - 1360 / 5 = 533.33333 - 272 = 261.33333 x 1.5 = 391.99999 / 40 = 9.79999 ppm
Melee vs VerAoE 4 target: 223.52941 - 272 = -48.47059 x 10.2 = 494.40001 / 125 = -3.9552 ppm

With these numbers, you can see that the melee combo is a gain over regular spellcasting even at 3 targets, but a massive deficit when compared against Moulinet. Once you reach 4 targets, it's not even worth looking at the part of your hotbar with the melee combo on it.