RDM thoughts and tuning needed

[foussi]

I think another fix for the displacement issue would be reducing the movement distance so we don't get yeeted off stages and also don't have to sacrifice the damage the skill gives.

Also I agree alot with the mana issues, they should maybe increase the amount of mana regenerated by lucid dream.

[Almandaragal]

Adding in my two gil that the MP regen is definitely either too low, spell cost too high, or Lucid Dreaming's potency is too low.

I've read elsewhere that the MP regen is still the same percentage, so while it's theoretically not that, the massive reduction in MP has of course caused it to feel that way.

Spell cost went down by 10-20% from what I can see, but they cut our MP pool by far more than that, and while we can technically get about a 25% increase on MP regen of Lucid Dreaming if we keep it on strict cooldown, it definitely doesn't make up for the drastic cut the magic classes had to their MP pools. Sure, Verraise is now "only" 2400 MP, but that's now essentially a quarter of our MP pool.

On top of that, if we die, even popping a Lucid Dreaming doesn't really do enough to keep us casting at full tilt, because we burn MP faster than it can generate. You have to hope for down time to get some MP back, or stand around being idle and hope that the healer can keep you topped off in your weakness so as not to die from the next roomwide.

I think some simple MP cost reduction would go a long way, since touching Lucid Dreaming would affect way more than just RDM.

Outside of that, things do feel like they're dying a bit slow, but that's always the case with lower gear levels, and it really just seems like they're never really going to gives us a DPS bump of any sort because of our "potential" utility, even if that's been disemboweled with the MP changes.

[Rongway]

The 35 may not be part of the cost input for the current combo, but it absolutely is for the NEXT combo.

If you're going to look at it that way (and I recommend we do), you also need to account for the mana that would have been generated by the spells you're not casting during the combo. This puts the effective cost of a full melee combo at about 163 mana, as the melee combo expends 160 and generates 35 in the time that you could have generated 38 mana by casting spells.

Spell cost went down by 10-20% from what I can see, but they cut our MP pool by far more than that, and while we can technically get about a 25% increase on MP regen of Lucid Dreaming if we keep it on strict cooldown, it definitely doesn't make up for the drastic cut the magic classes had to their MP pools. Sure, Verraise is now "only" 2400 MP, but that's now essentially a quarter of our MP pool.

It's funny that you use Verraise as your example, because Verraise is the one spell that's actually in a better position now.

But anyway for anyone who wants it, here's a comparison of our costs pre-/post- ShB.

Spell         SB cost    SB cost%    ShB cost    ShB cost%    Change
Jolt              360      2.500%         300       3.000%      +20%
Verstone          360      2.500%         300       3.000%      +20%
Verfire           360      2.500%         300       3.000%      +20%
Veraero           480      3.333%         400       4.000%      +20%
Verthunder        480      3.333%         400       4.000%      +20%
Verholy           600      4.167%         500       5.000%      +20%
Verflare          600      4.167%         500       5.000%      +20%
Scorch           ----      -----          500       5.000%      ----
Vercure           600      4.167%         500       5.000%      +20%
Scatter           480      3.333%         400       4.000%      +20%
Verraise         3600     25.000%        2400      24.000%       -4%

[Leidiriv]

If you're going to look at it that way (and I recommend we do), you also need to account for the mana that would have been generated by the spells you're not casting during the combo. This puts the effective cost of a full melee combo at about 163 mana, as the melee combo expends 160 and generates 35 in the time that you could have generated 38 mana by casting spells.

The problem with looking at the generation is that if you look at the generation in the melee combo, it's all hypothetical mana because you will overcap in that case. Mana wasted on overcapping has a potency of 0. Additionally, the reason we consider mana that could have been generated in the time spent on a weaponskill is because that mana could have been built toward a melee combo, and you can't build very far at all toward another melee combo in place of doing the melee combo.

[Rongway]

The problem with looking at the generation is that if you look at the generation in the melee combo, it's all hypothetical mana because you will overcap in that case. Mana wasted on overcapping has a potency of 0. Additionally, the reason we consider mana that could have been generated in the time spent on a weaponskill is because that mana could have been built toward a melee combo, and you can't build very far at all toward another melee combo in place of doing the melee combo.

There exists a mana range (20-180) where you could either execute a weaponskill or cast spells. That those weaponskills are the wrong choice during much of this range is irrelevant; they are usable. There's also a range (160-180ish) where you could execute a combo or continue to cast spells. Because of this, all that "hypothetical" mana is real mana.

[Leidiriv]

There exists a mana range (20-180) where you could either execute a weaponskill or cast spells. That those weaponskills are the wrong choice during much of this range is irrelevant; they are usable. There's also a range (160-180ish) where you could execute a combo or continue to cast spells. Because of this, all that "hypothetical" mana is real mana.

Okay, say we're at 200 mana (or, since we're not barbarians and want to guarantee the Stone/Fire proc off Holy/Flare, 199). We can't possibly generate any more mana. Does the melee combo still have the extra "cost" of the 28-35 mana you could have generated in that time?

[Rongway]

Okay, say we're at 200 mana (or, since we're not barbarians and want to guarantee the Stone/Fire proc off Holy/Flare, 199). We can't possibly generate any more mana. Does the melee combo still have the extra "cost" of the 28-35 mana you could have generated in that time?

That scenario isn't worth considering until we've already assigned value to a point of mana. What we are interested in are question like

• Should I spend my mana on E.Reprise or should I spend it on E.Riposte...Scorch?
• Should I spend my mana on E.Reprise or should I waste mana by overcapping?
• Should I spend my mana on E.Moulinet during this trash pull or should I save it for E.Riposte...Scorch?

If we're going to answer these questions, then we need to take into account not only the mana that we're spending but also the mana we're not generating because we've given up a certain period of spellcasting in order to perform the spender. Spending X mana doesn't delay the next spender by X mana. Because all the spenders are on the GCD, they meaningfully delay the next spender by the mana that would have been generated if you'd used generator actions instead. Therefore, we have to take into account the foregone mana as an additional cost of using the spender. Only then can we measure one spender against another. Then, once we know what each spender is worth, we can set our expected potency-per-mana based on the spender with the highest return. Then we can assign value to the overcap mana in your scenario and arrive at the conclusion that it's obviously a damage loss to continue to cast spells if you're at 199 and you have the opportunity to perform a complete combo.

[Almandaragal]

It's funny that you use Verraise as your example, because Verraise is the one spell that's actually in a better position now.

But anyway for anyone who wants it, here's a comparison of our costs pre-/post- ShB.

Spell         SB cost    SB cost%    ShB cost    ShB cost%    Change
Jolt              360      2.500%         300       3.000%      +20%
Verstone          360      2.500%         300       3.000%      +20%
Verfire           360      2.500%         300       3.000%      +20%
Veraero           480      3.333%         400       4.000%      +20%
Verthunder        480      3.333%         400       4.000%      +20%
Verholy           600      4.167%         500       5.000%      +20%
Verflare          600      4.167%         500       5.000%      +20%
Scorch           ----      -----          500       5.000%      ----
Vercure           600      4.167%         500       5.000%      +20%
Scatter           480      3.333%         400       4.000%      +20%
Verraise         3600     25.000%        2400      24.000%       -4%

Thanks for that. I guess my post seemed a little convoluted since I didn't have the same access to numbers that you seem to. I found a link to the old job guide, so I could see the actual MP changes (reductions, hence the 10-20% reduction bit), but I didn't have access to what our old MP pool was, so getting those percentages wasn't something I could do.

So yeah, Verraise is "better" off now, but our MP regen took such an overall nerf that everything else drains us so much that raising may not even be an option. Fortunately, a small MP cost reduction would balance this much better. If we can't compete DPS wise, nor much utility wise, the least they can do is make it so we aren't going to run out of MP if we keep Lucid Dreaming on cooldown.

[Archwizard]

If you're going to look at it that way (and I recommend we do), you also need to account for the mana that would have been generated by the spells you're not casting during the combo. This puts the effective cost of a full melee combo at about 163 mana, as the melee combo expends 160 and generates 35 in the time that you could have generated 38 mana by casting spells.

Then I suppose by extension of that logic, wouldn't the extra 3 be cancelled out by virtue of the Verfinisher ideally proccing a Ready ability, which is 3 Mana more than Jolt?

Red Mage is pretty bad at the moment. They are the 3rd lowest dps behind Dancer and Ninja. Ninja has Trick Attack, and Dancer's utility is beyond everything else in this game. Red Mage's MP problems makes him / her bad at it's only niche; res bitch for progression raiding.


I'm sorry to day, but I think Red Mage is currently the worst DPS class, and the worst class in the game along with Astro.

Too bad Embolden's just awfully designed, between the melee limiter and the diminishing effect. Take those out and we might actually get some favorable looks after progression.