RDM thoughts and tuning needed

[Valavaern]

After playing a solid 2 days with the new Redmage, there a fair few things that could deal with some adjusting and tuning.

1)The loss of the 4/4 gain from old Impact means that if you're unlucky with procs, your melee combo can now come a full 2 GCDs further into the fight than before, pushing you out of alignment with other classes buff windows. Scatter II should be bumped to 4/4 natively to adjust.

2)White/Black mana generation in AoE is way too slow; it feels like the beginning of Stormblood. This is caused in large part by the combo order being "reversed" from single target, making balancing mana gains between the two an issue. Aoe 'wants' us to get to 100/100 vs the 80/80 we need for single target, but it's much slower to get there, and it feels terrible. VerAero/Verthunder II need to be producing 11 mana, same as their single target counter parts, and Impact should go back to providing 4/4, to keep up with the scatter II change listed above.

As much as I like the feel of the AoE going from Elemental to Non-elemental spell, I think switching it around to match the single-target flow would allow for increased mana production while avoiding possible use of AoE spells on single targets for mana gains.

3)Engagement... was a good attempt to solve the 'Displacement' problem, but only ends up mitigating it, and it soaks up a valuable skill slot to do it. We'd be far better off removing the damage from Displacement entirely, re-distributing the potency into other skills, and leaving it as purely a movement ability, much like Bard's Repelling shot was a long time ago. Then Engagement could be removed entirely, and replaced with some party mitigation/healing. Give us VerShell/VerProtect/VerReflect/VerMedica. Something. The White magic aspect of Red Mages needs to be good for more than different colored damage spells.

4)Embolden needs to affect all damage types. This is the only buffing ability like this that's still split between magic and physical. It feels terrible, and punishes you for having another caster in the party.

5)Moulinet would feel much better if it were changed to a shorter-range 360 AoE, rather than it's current cone mechanic. This would allow for dashing in and immidiate use on the same target you were casting spells at, much like the Single-target combo.

6)I've seen some napkin math going on in other threads that make it look like Moulinet would be a better skill for over-capping than Reprise. I haven't run the numbers myself, but this needs a good looking at if true.

7)I'm still VERY, VERY MUCH of the opinion that Vercure and VerRaise need to be pre-50 skills.



Some good notes:
A)I like VerFlare/VerHoly being replacement skills now; that was a good import from PvP. I've accidentally hit my old keybinds for them and lost the proc several times, but that's my own fault and muscle memory that will fade with use.

B)The AoE spell rotation feels a lot better than scatter spam.

[Leidiriv]

1) Scatter was never 4/4

2) It's not meant to have the same flow, and you only need 90/90 for your Manafication burst.

3) Displacement's a vital part of high end RDM optimization and you can pry it out of my cold dead hands.

4) Eh, this one's not that urgent and it works great with the standard 2/1/1 DPS comp.

5) The cone feels relatively unique, I like it.

6) Yes it is, and yes it does.

7) They really should be.

[Gallus]

Honestly, if something, RDM feels like the most fluid and less clunky job to play. Go try SMN lol.

On a serious note, the only very small thing I'd change about RDM is the AOE. It should be impact/scatter into veraero II/verthunder II, I feel like it'd make a lot more sense. Still, not a big deal.

[Valavaern]

1) Scatter was never 4/4

I meant Impact. Fixed.

2) It's not meant to have the same flow, and you only need 90/90 for your Manafication burst.

The intention behind it does nothing to change how glacially slow and bad it feels.

3) Displacement's a vital part of high end RDM optimization and you can pry it out of my cold dead hands.

A vital part, not a GOOD part. Moving the potency around to other places and Exchanging Engagement for more utility would do far more for the job overall.

4) Eh, this one's not that urgent and it works great with the standard 2/1/1 DPS comp.

Perhaps, but seeing how every other party buff that only worked on one or the other has either been expanded or phased out entirely, this is still a needed change.

5) The cone feels relatively unique, I like it.

It feels unique, but doesn't flow well in practice.

6) Yes it is, and yes it does.

Yeah, looking deeper, general consensus seems to be that Reprise needs to be 260 potency to even break even.

[Zyneste]

3)Engagement... was a good attempt to solve the 'Displacement' problem, but only ends up mitigating it, and it soaks up a valuable skill slot to do it. We'd be far better off removing the damage from Displacement entirely, re-distributing the potency into other skills, and leaving it as purely a movement ability, much like Bard's Repelling shot was a long time ago. Then Engagement could be removed entirely, and replaced with some party mitigation/healing. Give us VerShell/VerProtect/VerReflect/VerMedica. Something. The White magic aspect of Red Mages needs to be good for more than different colored damage spells.

Engagement and Support Utility

Seriously with Engagement. Its a good skill, its just at the wrong level. Give it to us at level 40 when we learn displacement, maybe give it the same effect as PVP.



To fill the new slot that moving Enagement would open, I would prefer a support skill:



I would welcome a skill like this with such open arms. It would fill the gap that that losing Erase/Apoc left. At 480 Potency on a caster, it would heal for the same amount as Equilibrium/Clemency/Aurora, since RDM has the Maim and mend traits and the tanks do not. [Indemnity is a similar to the word Apocastasis in the sense of Restoration]

In place of the skill above I'd die to just have our 72 skill be a beefy buffed Erase. Something like 350 Potency, Cleanses a DoT, 100% crits upon cleansing a DoT. 60 second Cool down.

4)Embolden needs to affect all damage types. This is the only buffing ability like this that's still split between magic and physical. It feels terrible, and punishes you for having another caster in the party.

Embolden and Magic Damage for the party

Brotherhood still only affects physical. With the Devotion affecting everyone at 5% for 15 seconds on the same cool down as embolden, which decays to an average of about ~6% for physical only for 20 seconds, it really pushes RDM into a physical only comp. BLM and SMN can be paired with the changes to devotion and the removal of other class synergies. I'm fine with it being magic only boosted for ourselves.

5)Moulinet would feel much better if it were changed to a shorter-range 360 AoE, rather than it's current cone mechanic. This would allow for dashing in and immidiate use on the same target you were casting spells at, much like the Single-target combo.

Moulinet

This I think its fine as is. Its a pretty wide swing. They could however, increase the Actual range to match the 6 Yalms required and do so for every skill like this. You need to be within 6 yalms to use it, but will only hit targets within 5 yalms currently.

6)I've seen some napkin math going on in other threads that make it look like Moulinet would be a better skill for over-capping than Reprise. I haven't run the numbers myself, but this needs a good looking at if true.

Reprise

Reprise at the moment is just hot garbage. Only to be used if you could not cast anything. Its VerScathe and in no way is it a mana dump. Ench Riposte and Ench Moulinet fill that niche better and its a shame. AT 300 potency it would have filled the niche correctly.

7)I'm still VERY, VERY MUCH of the opinion that Vercure and VerRaise need to be pre-50 skills.

Vercure and VerRaise before 50

I think they're fine where they are. Id rather not lose more skills below 50 to adjust for them moving them.

[JeibuKul]

So far I am really enjoying Red Mage at level 80.

One thing I would love to do some testing and see some others do some testing on is AoE. Because if you are Verthunder/aero II followed by Scatter/Impact your generation of black and white mana is quite slow, but really about the same as just scatter spam. Honestly for the most part I tend use Veraero II followed by Verthunder, then Verthunder II follow by Veraero, or whichever I need more of if I am imbalanced. This is 18 mana generation compared to 10.

So far, I think it works better because there is usually one mob in each pack that has more health, OR its just beneficial to lower the numbers of a pack quicker. It quickens your mana generation and allows you more Enchanted Moulinets during an AoE pull, especially since if you cap at your Black/White you can do 5 Enchanted Moulinets in a row.

[Rongway]

One thing I would love to do some testing and see some others do some testing on is AoE. Because if you are Verthunder/aero II followed by Scatter/Impact your generation of black and white mana is quite slow, but really about the same as just scatter spam. Honestly for the most part I tend use Veraero II followed by Verthunder, then Verthunder II follow by Veraero, or whichever I need more of if I am imbalanced. This is 18 mana generation compared to 10 13.

(Remember to count all 3+3 mana from Scatter/Impact)

Boygolly, I misread this to mean you were doing VerAoE+VerAoE, but you actually meant you were doing VerAoE+Verslowspell, and I didn't realize it until I'd done all these maths for VerAoE+VerAoE. This does affect the maths, but they're still relevant because Scatter and Impact both outdamage a Verslowspell on 3+ targets. The servers are back up now, so I'm going to play some more rather than do more maths, but my preliminary recommendation is not using Verslowspells when you have three or more targets.

But anyway, here are numbers regarding VerAoE+Scatter/Impact vs VerAoE+VerAoE:

Lvs18-51: Scatter is 120, VerAoE spells are 100, and you don't have Moulinet

Without Moulinet for AoE, the worth of your mana is strictly based on single target, and that worth isn't that high even at 50 when you finally learn Redoublement. Let's look at Lvs50-51 because that's when mana will be worth the most in this range.

A Redoublement combo consumes 160 mana, deals 970, and takes 5.2s.

In 5.2s of single target spellcasting, you could have generated at least (6+11+(1.5))/5.0*5.2=19.24 mana and dealt (180+310+45)/5.0*5.2=556.4 potency. This means that at Lvs50-51, in single target, a Redoublement combo costs 179.24 mana and deals +413.6 potency. 1 mana, then, is worth 2.31 potency.

In 5.2s of AoE spellcasting v three targets, you could have generated 13.52 or 14.56 mana and dealt 686.4 or 624 potency. So compared to AoE spellcasting v three targets, a Redoublement combo costs 173.52~174.56 mana and deals +283.6~346.0 potency. This means the worth of 1 mana during AoE is 1.63~1.98 potency.

Considering the best of these cases, alternating VerAoE spells yields an additional 1 mana which is worth no more than 2.31 potency, but you sacrifice 20 potency per target. On three targets, you're losing at least 57.69 potency per dualcast.

And even then, interrupting your AoE to perform a Redoublement combo is a loss on 5 or more targets, so mana really only has worth if you have four or fewer targets (and again, these calculations assume a full 1-2-3 combo).

My recommendation for this level range: Dualcast VerAoE+Scatter.

Lvs52-65: Scatter is 120, VerAoE spells are 100, and you have Moulinet

The addition of Moulinet to the RDM panoply gives mana more worth.

Moulinet consumes 40 mana, deals 200 potency per target, and takes 1.5s.

In 1.5s of AoE spellcasting, you could have done...
VerAoE+Scatter: generated 3.9 mana and dealt 33 potency per target
VerAoE+VerAoE: generated 4.2 mana and dealt 30 potency per target.

So a Moulinet costs 43.9~44.2 mana and deals +167~170 potency per target. This puts the worth of 1 mana at 3.80~3.85 potency per target. By alternating VerAoE spells instead of employing Scatter, you sacrifice 20 potency per target for 1 mana. This comes to a loss of about 16 potency per target for each dualcast.

My recommendation for this level range: Dualcast VerAoE+Scatter.

Lvs66-77: Impact is 220, VerAoE spells are 100

Moulinet still consumes 40 mana and deals 200 potency per target over 1.5s.

What's changed is that now we have Impact, which deals an additional 100 potency over Scatter. So now, in 1.5s of AoE spellcasting, VerAoE+Impact would generate the same 3.9 mana but deal 48 potency per target. VerAoE+VerAoE still generate 4.2 mana and deal 30 potency per target. Moulinet now effectively costs 43.9~44.2 mana and deals +152~170 potency per target, with 1 mana ranging from 3.46 to 3.85 potency per target.

So ignoring Impact sacrifices 120 potency per target for 1 mana, a loss of about 117 potency per target per dualcast.

My recommendation for this level range: Dualcast VerAoE+Impact.

Lvs78-80: Impact is 220, VerAoE spells are 120

Still more of the same. The sacrifice of a VerAoE spell over Impact is now only 100. However, it's still a loss of about 97 potency per target.

[JeibuKul]

So, I was looking at it, and just looking at the numbers and the number of GCDs it takes.

It takes 32 GCDs using a VerAoE + Impact and does 5440 potency to each target to reach 104 Black/White Mana. At 24 GCDs the potency would be 4080.

It takes 24 GCDs using VerAoE + VerSlow and does 5160 potency to one target and 1440 potency to all others to reach 108 Black/White Mana.

You could also change up and do one Impact rotation in there, which would give you 103 Black/White Mana at GCD 24, changing your damage to 4980 single and 1880 for others.

So for a straight up lots of little mobs, I would probably say VerAoE+Impact would be the way to go. If there is one large mob in there, it would probably quicken the fight to have your Melee Combo ready 8 GCDs sooner.

Would also have to take in to account how long AoE packs take to kill and how much mana you want for the start of the next fight. I dunno??

[ValStormbreaker]

It's interesting that you mention this about AoEs. I find that a lot of the jobs were re-tuned with dungeons and FATEs with large trash mobs in mind but a lot of thinking came at the unfortunate cost of single-target rotations for trials and raids, which is where players spend the bulk of their time in end-game. This is what is making roulettes feel miserable in general for a lot of DPSes. It's interesting to see this isn't just an issue with the melee jobs but the casters as well. The new skill changes do force the jobs out of alignment with one another, yes. That's a very interesting observation to make. Makes me curious about the conditions job balancing was tested under, i.e. if they tested how jobs work for group content or were just looking at how they play on an individual level for some of the more SHB-heavy content like FATEs with lots of mobs.

[Scryar]

After getting Red Mage to 80 I'm not sure how I feel. On the one hand I'm glad they didn't butcher the class like some others. It basically plays the same as it did before the expansion. On the other hand I feel sad that the single target rotation will be the same as the last 2 years. (- impact + scorch) The aoe rotation is way better but I wished we would have got some interesting skills for single target. Engagement is as expected useless so far and I can already predict there won't be more than a handful of situations in which this skill will see any use. Enchanted Reprise had potential but after the nerf it's also a completely useless skill. Scorch doesn't feel really good to use. It's just 50 potency more than verflare/holy and the sound effect is awful imo. It's not satisfying to use as our big finisher. Overall I'm rather underwhelmed, especially seeing that my other caster (summoner) got a lot more attention and new interesting things. If it wasn't for the new aoe skills i would have said RDM got the worst treatment of all dps classes in the expansion. Even the aoe skills feel underwhelming. They look like less impresssive versions of thunder 4 and aero 3. I really wished they would have given us ice and water magic as aoe spells. Overall the Red Mage additions feel extremely lazy to me.