Shadowbringers - How can we fix this?

[Conando]

Let’s be real. People are wiping to even the bosses in the first ShB dungeon. Mechanically it still expects people to not be screw ups.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

Some times you need to get your teeth kicked in... How else would we know that we need to improve on anything in life?

Not going to lie- I think most players from other mmos will find this game too difficult. Every other mmo on the market doesn't have mechanics in content outside of raids- on occasion there might be a boss with one mechanic, or a very easy to avoid pool of fire or AOE- while this game throws back to back AoEs and adds at you all the time. And after 15 years of WoW, even having a boss with a single 'firepool' mechanic is too difficult to handle, even after people have seen the fight twenty times. This game? I get the 'new player, bonus tomes' message every time and people still figure out mechanics midfight, it's great.

Don't get me wrong, I love that. I'm just on Heavensward content right now, but so far I'm very pleased that dungeons are mechanically given the same treatment that every other MMO saves solely for raids.

Still, having mechanics be prevalent in the game early on is a better thing, it teaches people what to expect and to learn to avoid damage or do certain things. If the game was simply based on 'do x dps, do x hps, maybe step out of the fire' like 99% of dungeon content in WoW, what do you learn? A rotation? Admittedly, this game actually has interesting rotations that require more than 3 buttons to hit upper tier dps- but even so, this game having so much more early focus on learning mechanics rather than just getting better gear for more number output has made this the best leveling experience I've ever had in an mmo.

And I definitely sympathize if classes are being reduced in complexity, the class design in this game is amazing compared to what I've seen elsewhere. I also, as someone who loved disc priest in WoW and really am enjoying healing and dpsing in this game, hope they reconsider making healers here just healbots.

But, most players from other games are going to have enough trouble with this game as is- there's already your savages and extremes and raids and all those side hardcore zones. Why would you want to put a wall up to new players, and players that just want to enjoy the game for things like story or community? If this content's too easy for you, fine, you only have to do MSQ once, and so far it seems like most of the great fights have a harder difficulty anyway.

[Xieldras]

New players and difficult game

But that's the thing about games: you learn and get better.
Did I fail hard when I started playing FF14? Of course I did. But I learned, actually read my tooltips and job quests, watched videos of rotations, asked questions to other players and got a better understanding of what to do. I came from another MMO called Eden Eternal and, while it's true that FF14 has more stuff going on, I ultimately adjusted.

While I commend the way harder fights are designed (Normal mode teaching you the basic mechanics of the EX fight and additional mechanics throughout the fight itself), the way the game teaches you falls apart when it comes to basic mechanics you see throughout the game and how to play a class or role. It doesn't help either that people can use Jump Potions to skip to current content without learning anything.
I still see people fail stack markers or stack when they should spread at current level and that is not good in any multiplayer game where people have to work together to clear content.

I think that when it comes to difficulty in the game, people are not asking for Ultimate or Savage level of MSQ. Usually they're asking for a reasonable level of difficulty where you have to actually use your head to clear the content and not clear while watching Netflix on the side (or you know, having a real hard time to clear while watching Netflix).

Another thing of worthy mention is the attitude of the community. The community is cool (mostly), but there is a prevalent problem of "You don't pay my sub so you can't tell me what to do" going around. People play for themselves while ignoring the way their performance affects the group: no job crystal, gear too low to clear, bad rotations where the healer or tank does more damage than you, placing mechanics in a way that hurts or wipes the team, etc. You only have to read the venting thread in General Discussion to see what I mean.
Now, if they are new I easily forgive and move on but if they do not ask for help or tips on how to do things then I have less patience. What I have no tolerance for is players expecting a carry or being dead weight for laziness' sake.
And players trying to help those people can get snapped at or reported for Harassment (and play style differences count as Harassment now if I remember). Even kicking a bad player carries a risk now.

Rewarding the lowest effort possible is bad MMO design in my opinion because it causes a too great disparity between low and higher skilled players. And those play style differences cause problems when going into more mid-core and harder difficulties, which is usually end-game-till-new-patch content.

*Edit : NPCs in dungeons now do mechanics as well so that is a nice touch from S-E's part.

[supergiz]

Some times you need to get your teeth kicked in... How else would we know that we need to improve on anything in life?

Thing is this is a videogame. I'm happy they dumbed it down and I'm sure these changes are going to bring in more players. For most people this isn't the only game they play and they have a life outside the game.

I'm also very pleased with the simplifying of bard. I'm enjoying content much more now that I'm actually looking at the battle and not staring at my UI the entire time waiting for straight shot proc to be up again.

[Xieldras]

Thing is this is a videogame. I'm happy they dumbed it down and I'm sure these changes are going to bring in more players. For most people this isn't the only game they play and they have a life outside the game.

I'm also very pleased with the simplifying of bard. I'm enjoying content much more now that I'm actually looking at the battle and not staring at my UI the entire time waiting for straight shot proc to be up again.

There is always a few proc tells, not only in the UI, but on your character's VFX as well. Off the top of my head: the buff bar, the obvious hotbar, the party list, a small audio cue and the VFX around your character when the proc is up. With the amount of tells available, you didn't have to laser focus the UI. If you did have to laser focus, then maybe rearranging your UI so it could be easier to see everything at a glance would've been better. A lot of classes in the game use procs and if you had trouble focusing on the fight because of that, sorry but that's on you, not the game.

Bard as well was a class where you did have to check your party's MP as well as checking the enmity and cast bars to give out appropriate buffs (in other words, you had to check the entire battle UI from time to time) and not a solely DPS-focused class.

As for the classic "People have a life outside the game" excuse to lobotomize every complex thing in the game, here's the thing : your personal schedule shouldn't affect how the game plays for everyone else. I work the classic 9-5, go out for drinks sometimes and still manage to find the time to play a MMO (you know, one of those games that require a lot of time sink) at least 4 hours a week. It's also rather ironic to say that when I can't leave the game for a few months without losing the ultra rare in-game resource that is...a house.

Dumbing down the game to attract more players is the wrong way to go. Without fun, complex and challenging content (including gameplay), new players might come in but veterans and existing players will leave and might not recommend the game to would-be players because of how bored they were. And when your friends or FC mates leave, a domino effect can occur.
Don't reward lazy play.

The best thing Square could've done here instead of simplifying everything was actually upgrade their in-game teaching system (Novice Battle Hall or something, I barely used it and there lies your problem) so that I'm not stuck in a lv70 dungeon with a BLM that spams Ice spells or a tank that can't keep aggro despite me using Tactician and panic Refresh (apologies to healers when that happens ; I've Bard tanked more than I should have in my FF14 career).

*Edit : You also have the actual skill's icon appear next to your character for a few seconds when the proc is up

[Nomuno]

I would like to start this thread by addressing Yoshi-P.

Yoshida-san,

I have played Final Fantasy XIV for a very long time and I've personally praised you on more than one occasions for bringing this glorious game back from the place it came from. To that end, I will always cherish the time I've spent playing, building friendships and bragging about how I feel this MMO has solved the itch that no other MMO has.

Thank You!

With that being said however, I feel like this recent turn of events has left me feeling a little put off by the changes that Shadowbringers has brought. I myself, have played every class up to level 60 at least and some even up to level 70 with Stormblood. I am very much aware of the so called player skill gap between newer and older players such as myself. I have even taken it upon myself to teach those players who have a lesser understanding just to bring them closer to my skill level. Apparently this is not enough to get away from the over casualization of the game.

I don't believe that it is right to essentially bring those players who have taken the time to learn the intricacies of their preferred roles and bring them down to only doing one thing. I'm referring to the healers specifically with this point. I for one was very much so looking forward to the days of seeing myself dole out 4k plus DPS as a Scholar. While this may not be as high as some other players it was a milestone in my own mind. However, with these changes I feel like we'd would be lucky to achieve 1k DPS while maintaining the parties health.

So let's look at this from the newer players perspective for a moment. It is entirely up to that player to determine how much or how little effort they want to put into a game like this. If they want to become better at the job that they play they will put forth that effort. Likewise if they only want to loaf around and just see the sites that's on them.

Taking away the complexity of any job isn't the answer to this conundrum. I am only bringing this up because through your work and the work of your entire team at Square Enix's headquarters in Japan. You have made an HUGE impact on the community at large. That same community that is driven to being the most welcoming of newer players and even returning players. I've never come across another MMO community that has been this "well behaved", most of the time. I can and will acknowledge the faults of the so called "toxic" players out there. Surely though they can't make up the majority of this community?

I'll leave this thread to that same community that I've been talking about. Let them be heard and with a lot of love and a little effort. We can make this expansion the expansion it needs to be.

Look, healers should be healing. Not worried that they do enough DPS. Sorry, I actually agree with the change

Healer complexity has gone down however... Kiss doing deeps good bye

Then play a dps? Stop clamoring about it

[Varushkin]

Look, healers should be healing. Not worried that they do enough DPS. Sorry, I actually agree with the change




Then play a dps? Stop clamoring about it

So you enjoy playing a class that, due to these changes, feels boring? I've seen players like yourself and if healing is all that you want from playing such a role then so be it. It's one thing to play like that in a regular dungeon but to me if the healers can help out in a raid like environment. ergo. primals, 24-mans and the 8-man content. I feel like it's worth feeling like you are pulling your weight on top of healing. Popping off one DoT and maybe spamming one spell like Ruin or Stone isn't enough for me.

[Varushkin]

I'd like to leave this link here in the forum to show what I'm talking about. This link will show the level of play that has been forfeited by "dumbing" down healer play to only healing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r5K4DcigfA

This singular video shows the level of play and complexity that I as a Final Fantasy XIV player love.

[NekoNova]

I'd like to leave this link here in the forum to show what I'm talking about. This link will show the level of play that has been forfeited by "dumbing" down healer play to only healing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r5K4DcigfA

This singular video shows the level of play and complexity that I as a Final Fantasy XIV player love.

Yeah, and that's not the kind of complexity you can enforce in a MSQ/casual run of the game.
Keep that stuff in Savage for people that do Savage.


I personally feel the changes to be good.
I picked up Summoner this expansion, and I'm enjoying the class.
I can keep up with other DPS, and I'm above the tank and healers.


Is my rotation perfect? far from it, and I hope to get better at it as I play more.
The first dungeon in ShB was challenging enough, and with a few tweaks here and there, they did a good Job.

[NanaWiloh]

Yeah, and that's not the kind of complexity you can enforce in a MSQ/casual run of the game.
Keep that stuff in Savage for people that do Savage.


I personally feel the changes to be good.
I picked up Summoner this expansion, and I'm enjoying the class.
I can keep up with other DPS, and I'm above the tank and healers.


Is my rotation perfect? far from it, and I hope to get better at it as I play more.
The first dungeon in ShB was challenging enough, and with a few tweaks here and there, they did a good Job.

Video to me amounted to this.. Spam dmg spell>refresh dot>use CD rinse and repeat yes yes very complex.